What is the Gospel?

[Tenchi]

This has nothing to do with the topic. I said God knows our hearts and you agree.

No, you wrote that it "goes beyond what is disclosed in Scripture" to say that God knows our thoughts. I supplied verses that indicate this isn't so.

The key issue of our dispute, is whether Abraham or his faith was credited as righteousness. No one is made righteous, except by the blood of the Lamb, He paid the debt owed due to our unrighteousness, and therefore when we are placed into Christ and undergo the washing of regeneration, we are made righteous, blameless, as our sin burden, what God required due to our sin, has been removed, nailed to the cross so to speak.

Under the New Covenant, what you've written about being made righteous in Jesus Christ is true. But Abraham did not live under this covenant. He did not even live under the OT Mosaic covenant. And so, when he trusted God, Abraham's faith was counted to him by God as righteousness.

The Biblical Gospel offers the opportunity to be reconciled to God, rather than the false gospel that claims there is nothing an individual can do to alter the foreordained outcome of his or her life.

I understand. I'm not a Calvinist, either. I would remark here that foreknowledge does not necessitate fore-ordination, or causation. It does not follow necessarily that God's foreknowledge of all events means He has caused/ordained them.

We are told to have a faith like Abraham's which was credited as righteousness. Our faith in Christ as Lord and Savior requires more than trusting in Christ's promises, it requires our full commitment and devotion to Christ as our Lord, such that we are willing to follow Christ no matter the cost.

This is a kind of works-salvation that rests one's salvation upon their "full commitment and devotion to Christ as Lord" and upon one's ability to sacrifice oneself in pursuit of Christ "no matter the cost." The reality is that when anyone comes to Christ for salvation, however much they believe they are devoted to him, however much they are ready to sacrifice as they follow in his steps, what they will discover is that they don't have it in them, in their own self-directed willpower, in their own strength of mind and body, to live in the supernatural way that they must with God.

We all come to God for salvation profoundly weak (Ro. 5:6), bound under the power of the World, the flesh and the devil (Eph. 2:1-3; Titus 3:3, Col. 1:21), utterly unable to properly meet God's standard by ourselves (Matt. 5:48). What resolve can we supply, then, what powers of commitment and sacrifice can we offer to God, that He would accept? What He wants from us - perfection - He must first supply to us in the Person of the Holy Spirit, without whom we have no capacity to properly achieve God's standard whatever.

In light of these facts, it is very strange to read your version of how one is saved, locating, as you do, God's willingness to save us in our own degree of commitment to Him and our ability to sacrifice in pursuit of Christ.

The gospel is not fire insurance which you buy and put in your back pocket.

Has someone said that it is?

 

[kyredneck]

No, what I'm going to do is ignore you again. I showed you the plain scripture. Not wasting any more time on discussing this with you.

Good choice.

 

[kyredneck]

Abraham’s faith was credited as righteousness back in Genesis 12.

Agree.

It was not a God hating totally depraved dead alien sinner that Jehovah called out of Mesopotamia years before Gen 15:6, appeared to several times, and announced blessings upon.

It was not an unregenerate man that built an altar to Jehovah at Shechem years before Gen 15:6

It was not to a dead alien sinner that Melchizedek pronounced 'Blessed be Abram of God Most High' years before Gen 15:6.

God had already wrought within him as revealed in Jn 3:21.

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.

 

[JesusFan]

??? I have no idea how you've come to ask this question in response to what I wrote.

Saying that I agree with you, as against those like Van who holds to a degree of Open Theism

 

[JesusFan]

No, you wrote that it "goes beyond what is disclosed in Scripture" to say that God knows our thoughts. I supplied verses that indicate this isn't so.



Under the New Covenant, what you've written about being made righteous in Jesus Christ is true. But Abraham did not live under this covenant. He did not even live under the OT Mosaic covenant. And so, when he trusted God, Abraham's faith was counted to him by God as righteousness.



I understand. I'm not a Calvinist, either. I would remark here that foreknowledge does not necessitate fore-ordination, or causation. It does not follow necessarily that God's foreknowledge of all events means He has caused/ordained them.



This is a kind of works-salvation that rests one's salvation upon their "full commitment and devotion to Christ as Lord" and upon one's ability to sacrifice oneself in pursuit of Christ "no matter the cost." The reality is that when anyone comes to Christ for salvation, however much they believe they are devoted to him, however much they are ready to sacrifice as they follow in his steps, what they will discover is that they don't have it in them, in their own self-directed willpower, in their own strength of mind and body, to live in the supernatural way that they must with God.

We all come to God for salvation profoundly weak (Ro. 5:6), bound under the power of the World, the flesh and the devil (Eph. 2:1-3; Titus 3:3, Col. 1:21), utterly unable to properly meet God's standard by ourselves (Matt. 5:48). What resolve can we supply, then, what powers of commitment and sacrifice can we offer to God, that He would accept? What He wants from us - perfection - He must first supply to us in the Person of the Holy Spirit, without whom we have no capacity to properly achieve God's standard whatever.

In light of these facts, it is very strange to read your version of how one is saved, locating, as you do, God's willingness to save us in our own degree of commitment to Him and our ability to sacrifice in pursuit of Christ.



Has someone said that it is?

Based upon full commitment and devotion to Christ as Lord", would any of us here posting actually merit our salvation? Van seems to have a mixture of Open Theism and extreme Lordship salvation mixing together now

 

[Van]

False claims:
1) "Our faith is never described as worthless."
1 Corinthians 15:17
and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
2 Timothy 3:8
Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, worthless in regard to the faith.
Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.
Hebrews 6:1-8 addresses worthless faith that produces thorns.
James 1:26
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this person's religion is worthless.

Obviously if we believe in another gospel, if is worthless. If our belief is superficial, rather than heart-felt, it is worthless. If our faith does not make Christ the overriding priority of our life, it is worthless. See Matthew 13.

2) You [Van]"have carefully omitted part of Romans 9:16." How does God have mercy? See Romans 9:24.

3) "No Calvinist says this mercy is based on nothing." Unconditional Election results in God having mercy.

4) "not because of whatever we may think we can do for him, which is what you imagine:" I said our election was not based on what we will or do, such as doing something for God, yet this poster charges me with the exact opposite.

5) John 6:37 says people "come to Him" referring to a change in spiritual location, not an acceptance of His gospel.

6) Next the poster says we come to Him relying on His free electing love. Actually Calvinism says we were elected unconditionally, and come to Him due to being compelled by irresistible grace.

7) Finally this poster claims we come to Him with nothing God would want, such as belief in and devotion to Christ.
1 John 3:23
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

 

[Van]

No, you wrote that it "goes beyond what is disclosed in Scripture" to say that God knows our thoughts. I supplied verses that indicate this isn't so.



Under the New Covenant, what you've written about being made righteous in Jesus Christ is true. But Abraham did not live under this covenant. He did not even live under the OT Mosaic covenant. And so, when he trusted God, Abraham's faith was counted to him by God as righteousness.



I understand. I'm not a Calvinist, either. I would remark here that foreknowledge does not necessitate fore-ordination, or causation. It does not follow necessarily that God's foreknowledge of all events means He has caused/ordained them.



This is a kind of works-salvation that rests one's salvation upon their "full commitment and devotion to Christ as Lord" and upon one's ability to sacrifice oneself in pursuit of Christ "no matter the cost." The reality is that when anyone comes to Christ for salvation, however much they believe they are devoted to him, however much they are ready to sacrifice as they follow in his steps, what they will discover is that they don't have it in them, in their own self-directed willpower, in their own strength of mind and body, to live in the supernatural way that they must with God.

We all come to God for salvation profoundly weak (Ro. 5:6), bound under the power of the World, the flesh and the devil (Eph. 2:1-3; Titus 3:3, Col. 1:21), utterly unable to properly meet God's standard by ourselves (Matt. 5:48). What resolve can we supply, then, what powers of commitment and sacrifice can we offer to God, that He would accept? What He wants from us - perfection - He must first supply to us in the Person of the Holy Spirit, without whom we have no capacity to properly achieve God's standard whatever.

In light of these facts, it is very strange to read your version of how one is saved, locating, as you do, God's willingness to save us in our own degree of commitment to Him and our ability to sacrifice in pursuit of Christ.



Has someone said that it is?

LOL, you cited a verse that says God knows our thoughts from afar, and then you claim it is going too far to say God knows our thoughts. So you posted verses that proved my point, then claimed the opposite. Fiddlesticks

No, God crediting our faith as righteousness, is according to grace, not works, Romans 4:16

It is going beyond scripture to say to say God knows our future thoughts by looking into the future.

I did not claim Abraham was made righteous, I claimed His faith was credited to him as righteousness.

Foreknowledge refers to using knowledge acquired or formulated in the past, in the present. Thus God planned in the past for His Lamb of God to die, and then Christ was put to death by His predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God.

Yes, when we place our faith and devotion upon Christ, we do not have within us the ability to live without stumbling, but in His grace, He still accepts us just as we are, and credits the faith of some, whom He saves, as righteousness.

 

[Tenchi]

LOL, you cited a verse that says God knows our thoughts from afar, and then you claim it is going too far to say God knows our thoughts.

I've never said that it is going too far to say God knows our thoughts, you did. I simply showed from Scripture that this isn't so. Please read my posts more carefully.

No, God crediting our faith as righteousness, is according to grace, not works, Romans 4:16

It is going beyond scripture to say to say God knows our future thoughts by looking into the future.

I did not claim Abraham was made righteous, I claimed His faith was credited to him as righteousness.

Foreknowledge refers to using knowledge acquired or formulated in the past, in the present. Thus God planned in the past for His Lamb of God to die, and then Christ was put to death by His predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God.

Yes, when we place our faith and devotion upon Christ, we do not have within us the ability to live without stumbling, but in His grace, He still accepts us just as we are, and credits the faith of some, whom He saves, as righteousness.

None of this actually well-addresses the points I made in my last post to you. Mostly, you seem to be purposefully talking past them.