What is the hold?

[MennoSota]

There are a lot of scriptural passages that point to Mary at the ark of the New Covenant:

Just as the glory of the Lord overshadowed the ark in the tabernacle, the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary.

THE ARK: “Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.” Exodus 40:34.

MARY: “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee.” Luke 1:35.

* * * * *
In his narrative of the Visitation, Luke borrows heavily from references to the ark in 2 Samuel 6.

THE ARK: When trying to bring the ark up to the city, David said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" 2 Samuel 6:9.

MARY: When Elizabeth greeted Mary she said, “[W]hence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Luke 1:43. (Note the reference to the Theotokos.)

* * * * *
THE ARK: “[T]he ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months.” 2 Samuel 6:11.

MARY: “And Mary abode with her [Elizabeth] about three months.” Luke 1:56.

* * * * *
THE ARK: David was leaping before the ark as it was brought into the city. 2 Samuel 6:16.

MARY: At the sound of Mary’s voice, John leaped for joy in Elizabeth’s womb. Luke 1:44.

* * * * *
The contents of the ark are all symbolic of Jesus, who was conceived in the womb of Mary.

THE ARK CONTAINED (1) a golden jar holding the manna (bread), (2) Aaron's rod which budded (the priesthood) and (3) the tables of the covenant (the word of God) Hebrews 9:4.

OUR LORD, CONCEIVED IN THE WOMB OF MARY is to us (1) the Bread of Life, John 6:48; our High Priest, Hebrews 5:10; and the eternal Word, John 1:1

* * * * *.
Finally, in the book of Revelation we see the ark of the covenant, whose whereabouts has been unknown since the time of Jeremiah. Next we see the majestic woman with a crown of twelve stars giving birth to a child who would rule the nations. We don’t tend to read these verses together because of a chapter division but when they were written, there was no division. There is definitely a nexus between the ark and the woman (Mary) who gives birth to the child (Jesus).

“And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.” Revelation 11:19-12:1.

SMH

 

[MennoSota]

The abuse of scripture being perpetuated by Zenas reminds me of the meme posted by another person in the Calvin/Arminian forum...

 

[Zenas]

Please explain how Ezekiel is a proof of Mary’s virginity after giving birth to Jesus.

Honestly, the way you have abused the Bible by ripping verses out of context as a proof text to your pretext is the story of legends. You could be used as an example in a hermaneutics class on failed bible study in preparation.

How can you abuse God's word so horrifically?

Ezekiel 4 speaks for itself. The eastern gate is the birth canal. This was recognized by Jerome, Ambrose and Augustine. It has been recognized in both the eastern church and the western church ever since these men wrote their commentaries. Based on your posts, I know you have read a lot and may have seminary training. However, if you have never heard Ezekiel 4 interpreted this way, you ought to do a little reading outside the reservation. Then at least you could make intelligent comments rather than reply with cartoon characters.

 

[MennoSota]

Ezekiel 4 speaks for itself. The eastern gate is the birth canal. This was recognized by Jerome, Ambrose and Augustine. It has been recognized in both the eastern church and the western church ever since these men wrote their commentaries. Based on your posts, I know you have read a lot and may have seminary training. However, if you have never heard Ezekiel 4 interpreted this way, you ought to do a little reading outside the reservation. Then at least you could make intelligent comments rather than reply with cartoon characters.

LOL, the Eastern gate of the temple equals the birth canal. Does that mean that Mary was facing toward Persia when she gave birth to Jesus?

It's clear that Jerome, Ambrose and Augustine were utterly wrong in their allegory regarding Mary. They got some other things right in the Bible, but this one is just laughably wrong.

 

[utilyan]

Infant baptism. Not found in the Bible. Priests in the church. Not found in the Bible. Purgatory. Not found in the Bible. Mary magically becoming the Ark of the Covenant. Not found in the Bible.

We're not at an impasse. We're at a point where you can't give up fairy tale stories passed on as being equal with God's word.

Bible is not found in the bible. You have no canon of scripture, too bad, so sad, bye bye.

 

[MennoSota]

Bible is not found in the bible. You have no canon of scripture, too bad, so sad, bye bye.

LOL

 

[Matt Black]

Please explain how Ezekiel is a proof of Mary’s virginity after giving birth to Jesus.

Honestly, the way you have abused the Bible by ripping verses out of context as a proof text to your pretext is the story of legends. You could be used as an example in a hermaneutics class on failed bible study in preparation.

How can you abuse God's word so horrifically?

You say 'abuse', I say 'interpreting the Word of God aright'. Who is to judge between us as to whose interpretation is correct? If only we had a teaching authority to do that.... Oh, wait

 

[utilyan]

Please explain how Ezekiel is a proof of Mary’s virginity after giving birth to Jesus.

Honestly, the way you have abused the Bible by ripping verses out of context as a proof text to your pretext is the story of legends. You could be used as an example in a hermaneutics class on failed bible study in preparation.

How can you abuse God's word so horrifically?

Says someone who reads:

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

And mentally figures...... Duurrrr..... that must mean Man is justified by faith alone and not by works.

 

[MennoSota]

You say 'abuse', I say 'interpreting the Word of God aright'. Who is to judge between us as to whose interpretation is correct? If only we had a teaching authority to do that.... Oh, wait

Matt, I read "Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus" by Nabeel Qureshi. He shared how, as a Muslim, he was trained to take a verse from the Bible and use it as a proof text that the Bible prophesied of about Muhammad coming as the last and final prophet. The context of the verses had nothing to do with Muhammad, but because he had a pretext in his mind, he claimed the verse anyway. THAT is exactly what our Roman church friends are doing with the verses they use to claim Mary's perpetual virginity. It's what cults do to twist the Bible. It's what Satan did when he quoted the Bible. Why would those who claim to be Christians do the same thing and abuse God's word to suit their own agenda?

The context of scripture trumps the traditions created by the flawed leaders in Vatican City. If you want to follow them blindly and not question their interpretations then you are no different than a cult member or a member of a radical Muslim sect who blindly straps on his bomb and tells himself that Allah is pleased.

 

[MennoSota]

Says someone who reads:

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

And mentally figures...... Duurrrr..... that must mean Man is justified by faith alone and not by works.

Nice use of verse out of context. It seems to be a Roman church trend. No wonder the pope and the imams are holding hands...

 

[steaver]

Says someone who reads:

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

And mentally figures...... Duurrrr..... that must mean Man is justified by faith alone and not by works.

Why did James say "You see then..."?

What did James just explain about Abraham? Did you miss that part?

James just explained how works "showed" Abraham's faith was true. Not that works saved Abraham.

The works justified Abraham's "said faith". This is all framed with James' opening comments to this passage....

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (2:18).

Right there is the very core of James' declarations concerning the justification by faith. The works do not justify the soul,James never says that, justification is done by faith in Jesus Christ alone.

The works DO justify the claim of faith in Jesus Christ. This is exactly what James declares. Anyone declaring that James is speaking of the works actually doing the justifying of the soul is purposefully perverting what James is speaking on which is "show thee my faith".

 

[steaver]

He was fully God but lowered Himself to be Incarmated to our humanity. Re-read Phil 2: 6-12

At what time was Jesus Christ not fully God? Please explain when this was.

 

[steaver]

I'm really surprised that we're even having this debate: I thought that what has been said here is pretty foundational to basic Christian Christology. The fact that it's even up for discussion surely demonstrates the theological bankruptcy of sola scriptura: here is the blind alley to which it deceitly leads!

Lol. Who's bankruptcy? What is the foundational teaching by Christology? When was Jesus Christ NOT fully God? Please explain.

 

[Matt Black]

Matt, I read "Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus" by Nabeel Qureshi. He shared how, as a Muslim, he was trained to take a verse from the Bible and use it as a proof text that the Bible prophesied of about Muhammad coming as the last and final prophet. The context of the verses had nothing to do with Muhammad, but because he had a pretext in his mind, he claimed the verse anyway. THAT is exactly what our Roman church friends are doing with the verses they use to claim Mary's perpetual virginity. It's what cults do to twist the Bible. It's what Satan did when he quoted the Bible. Why would those who claim to be Christians do the same thing and abuse God's word to suit their own agenda?

The context of scripture trumps the traditions created by the flawed leaders in Vatican City. If you want to follow them blindly and not question their interpretations then you are no different than a cult member or a member of a radical Muslim sect who blindly straps on his bomb and tells himself that Allah is pleased.

Proof-texting is what evangelicals do too. You might claim to be interpreting in context but how does that explain the multiplicity of interpretations, often mutually-contradictory, that exist amongst evangelicals.

And your comparison to suicide bombers is very poor taste, particularly in the light of this week's events in Manchester.

 

[Matt Black]

At what time was Jesus Christ not fully God? Please explain when this was.

Never.

 

[Matt Black]

Lol. Who's bankruptcy? What is the foundational teaching by Christology? When was Jesus Christ NOT fully God? Please explain.

Have you never heard of the doctrine of kenosis? Again, this is pretty basic stuff.

 

[steaver]

Never.

There you go! Never! Fully God is omnipresent. This is pretty simple stuff.

 

[Matt Black]

So - what - He appeared simultaneously in every location in the world for 33 years?

 

[MennoSota]

Proof-texting is what evangelicals do too. You might claim to be interpreting in context but how does that explain the multiplicity of interpretations, often mutually-contradictory, that exist amongst evangelicals.

And your comparison to suicide bombers is very poor taste, particularly in the light of this week's events in Manchester.

Everyone is vulnerable to proof texting, but Protestants admire the Berean for challenging Paul when he made claims. The debates happen because people want to rightly divide the word of God. Thus we call on people to keep their arguments in context of the entire passage. You should be very aware that the original manuscripts don't have chapters or verse numbers. They are free flowing documents and they have a context. Use context so you don't end up in a place the author (God) never intended.

 

[steaver]

So - what - He appeared simultaneously in every location in the world for 33 years?

No one said He appeared. Omnipresent is in Spirit. How do you think He seen Nathaniel under the fig tree?