What is the largest Church in America?

[Thinkingstuff]

You did not place your faith in that man or his ordination for salvation and so it made no difference as to your salvation.

The Bible clearly teaches that there are true and false PROFESSORS. Wheat and tares look alike to the untrained eye. I lived in eastern Washington in the wheat counties. The only visible distinction that I could make between the wheat and tare is that in the time of harvest the tare stood erect while the wheat was bent over due to the fruit or grain.

The Bible says that the true believers are known by their FRUIT and so are false prophets. One indicator of a false profession is that they begin with a profession of Christ but turn against Christ (1 Jn. 2:19). The epistle of First John is how to distinguish a true from a false profession in Christ. You repudiate Christ when you repudiate justification by faith without works.

Either such a person is completely without the inward confirming work of the Holy Spirit (as the Holy Spirit does not bear witness with error but with truth) and deceived or their initial profession was simply an empty profession and their present profession is indicatitive of their true spiritual state.

I think the pertinant question is what do you believe "fruit" is? And if conforming to the "work" of the Holy Spirit is about deeds rather than profession then how does this apply?

 

[Dr. Walter]

It still doesn't explain the difference. The term regeneration implies activity or a change. So how is decisional regeneration not salvific? Are you saying you can't make a "decision for Jesus"? If so I'll have to tell my pastor to stop using that during the alter call.

DHK and I were arguing from the testimony of Lori or from her view point. You have now changed it from her view point to what should be our view point in order to escape the dilemma presented by DHK and reasserted by yours truly.

Whether we perceive her to be lost or a deceived saved person makes no difference in this argument. By her own admission she has placed herself in an impossible dilemma. She claims she was saved under a Baptist Gospel that she now repudiates as a false gospel as two opposite gospels cannot be both true. No one can be saved under a false gospel just "accursed" so by her own admission she was saved under a FALSE GOSPEL and no false gospel can save. By her own admission she must be considered a lost PROFESSING person when she was a Baptist and she has no other testimony of salvation under what she now considers to be the TRUE gospel and so must still be a lost person. It is an impossible dilemma.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

DHK and I were arguing from the testimony of Lori or from her view point. You have now changed it from her view point to what should be our view point in order to escape the dilemma presented by DHK and reasserted by yours truly.

Whether we perceive her to be lost or a deceived saved person makes no difference in this argument. By her own admission she has placed herself in an impossible dilemma. She claims she was saved under a Baptist Gospel that she now repudiates as a false gospel as two opposite gospels cannot be both true. No one can be saved under a false gospel just "accursed" so by her own admission she was saved under a FALSE GOSPEL and no false gospel can save. By her own admission she must be considered a lost PROFESSING person when she was a Baptist and she has no other testimony of salvation under what she now considers to be the TRUE gospel and so must still be a lost person. It is an impossible dilemma.

I think its important here to discuss what is meant by Gospel. If the Gospel is that salvation comes by faith in jesus Christ. Then how has a false Gospel been proclaimed in either camp? Explain first what you mean by Gospel. Is baptism and how its understood essential to the gospel or not? The Catholic position is that if you have faith you can be saved even if you are not baptized. The baptist position is that if you have faith in Jesus Christ and are not baptised you are still saved. So how is it an impossible dilemma?

 

[Dr. Walter]

I think its important here to discuss what is meant by Gospel. If the Gospel is that salvation comes by faith in jesus Christ. Then how has a false Gospel been proclaimed in either camp? Explain first what you mean by Gospel. Is baptism and how its understood essential to the gospel or not? The Catholic position is that if you have faith you can be saved even if you are not baptized. The baptist position is that if you have faith in Jesus Christ and are not baptised you are still saved. So how is it an impossible dilemma?

You continue to make statements that places doubt on your own spiritual condition. The only situation where Rome believes anyone can be saved by faith without baptism is as follows:

"For catechumens who die beffore their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament." - 1259 - Catechism of the Catholic Church

The only other exception is merely the hope of infants dying without baptsim might receive mercy from God.

Yet, you are very deceptive as you simply state "The Catholic position is that if you have faith you can be saved even if you are not baptized" as though this was the UNCONDITIONAL position of Rome when you know fully well it is not. You are a deceiver and your fruits bear witness of that.

 

[DHK]

I can't but help notice that DHK has dodged this question several times now.

He wishes to put lori4dogs under the microscope to examine her salvation - but refuses to examine himself under the same standards?

Why is this?

I have not dodged any question about my salvation. I have been very clear about it. Perhaps you don't read my posts clearly.
When I was saved, I wasn't baptized until 2 years later, but I still knew I was saved. I knew then as I know now, that if I should die right now I would go straight to heaven. I now that as surely as if I was already there. I have no doubt.

Does the Spirit that dwells within you bear witness with your witness that you are a child of God?
The answer to that question for me is: Yes indeed. He does bear witness with my spirit that I am a child of God. I know that I am his child. I know that I have eternal life and that my sins are forgiven: past, present, and future. Of that I have no doubt.

My baptism has nothing to do with my salvation. It was purely symbolic, a picture of my death to sin, to my old life of sin, and my resurrection to a new life in Christ. (See Romans 6:3,4).

Furthermore, unlike Lori, I have never, never, contradicted my testimony of salvation. It has been consistent since the day that I have been saved. I don't believe Catholicism and the evangelical gospel at the same time. When I left the heretical beliefs of the Catholic Church I never turned back to their heresies again. I turned to the beliefs that God showed me in the Scriptures. They were clear and in direct opposition to the Catholic Church. I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him that day.

When I got saved, I took as my life verse:

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nothing has separated me from the love of God and nothing ever will.
Is that clear enough?
Do you have any other questions, targus?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You continue to make statements that places doubt on your own spiritual condition. The only situation where Rome believes anyone can be saved by faith without baptism is as follows:

"For catechumens who die beffore their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament." - 1259 - Catechism of the Catholic Church

The only other exception is merely the hope of infants dying without baptsim might receive mercy from God.

Yet, you are very deceptive as you simply state "The Catholic position is that if you have faith you can be saved even if you are not baptized" as though this was the UNCONDITIONAL position of Rome when you know fully well it is not. You are a deceiver and your fruits bear witness of that.

I notice you didn't answer the question. And I haven't deceived anyone. The catachism goes on further to say

Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

So again you overstate your position. I haven't deceived anyone. I think that tasks falls to you. The bottom line (having a business background the bottom line is key despite all the other elements added to and subracted from the financials) is that you get the senario I spoke of. Faith is salvific and if baptism is not taken it doesn't mean you won't be saved for both baptist and Catholic.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

DHK-I'm teaching that verse of Romans tomorrow @ Mens bible study as a matter of fact....excellent & Amen :thumbs:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I have not dodged any question about my salvation.

Can Candians be saved? I'm not certian. Certainly, it probably unscriptural. Hezikiah 12:32 "maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving Canadians, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the Canadians unpunished; he punishes their children and their children for the sin of the Canadian fathers to the third and fourth generation" I don't know maybe 5th generation Canadians?:laugh:

 

[Dr. Walter]

I notice you didn't answer the question. And I haven't deceived anyone. The catachism goes on further to say So again you overstate your position. I haven't deceived anyone. I think that tasks falls to you. The bottom line (having a business background the bottom line is key despite all the other elements added to and subracted from the financials) is that you get the senario I spoke of. Faith is salvific and if baptism is not taken it doesn't mean you won't be saved for both baptist and Catholic.

You have defceived and are deceiving as the final clause states the very same CONDITION as in the first part - death before DESIRED baptism. Yet you state it without ANY CONDITIONS as though this was the Roman Catholic unconditional doctrine of salvation.

I have answered the question but you have not fairly stated the question. You have placed the Baptist and Catholic view of salvation by faith on EQUAL footing by presenting the Catholic view as though it were unconditional. That is pure deception. The Baptist view is justification by grace ALONE through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE and totally and wholly WITHOUT WORKS - WITHOUT BAPTISM - no exceptions, no conditions, no ifs, no buts.

However, the Roman Catholic position is there is no salvation by faith alone without works as they place such a view as "accursed" at the council of trent. So for you to suggest both ways teach salvation can be obtained by faith alone is pure deception as you fully well know that is not true and that the Roman exceptions are conditioned by the intent and desire to be baptized in order to obtain salvation and you fully well know by Lori's profession that she was not baptized with that intent or desire. So yes, you are acting like a deceiver.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You have defceived and are deceiving as the final clause states the very same CONDITION as in the first part - death before DESIRED baptism. Yet you state it without ANY CONDITIONS as though this was the Roman Catholic unconditional doctrine of salvation.

Question. Do Catholics say you have to be baptized to be saved? Yes or No?

I have answered the question but you have not fairly stated the question.

What goes around comes around. Yep karma now you can accuse me of being Budhist.

You have placed the Baptist and Catholic view of salvation by faith on EQUAL footing by presenting the Catholic view as though it were unconditional.

Question. Do Catholics say you have to be baptized to be saved? Yes or No?

That is pure deception.

Question. Do Catholics say you have to be baptized to be saved? Yes or No?

The Baptist view is justification by grace ALONE through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE and totally and wholly WITHOUT WORKS - WITHOUT BAPTISM - no exceptions, no conditions, no ifs, no buts.

Question. Do Catholics say you have to be baptized to be saved? Yes or No?

However, the Roman Catholic position is there is no salvation by faith alone without works as they place such a view as "accursed" at the council of trent.

You'll have to ensure you properly define these terms from a Catholic perspective before you can even comment on Trent. Faith and Works. And Why is James so problematic for you?

So for you to suggest both ways teach salvation can be obtained by faith alone is pure deception as you fully well know

Question. Do Catholics say you have to be baptized to be saved? Yes or No?

that is not true and that the Roman exceptions are conditioned by the intent and desire to be baptized in order to obtain salvation

So you're saying if you don't have the intent or desire to have faith you can still be saved? Hmmm.

and you fully well know by Lori's profession that she was not baptized with that intent or desire

Actually, I don't she didn't say that.

So yes, you are acting like a deceiver

Nope Doctor O' buddy O' Pal I'm not. Whats the bottom line?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Do Baptists teach the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is relevant today?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Do Baptists teach the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is relevant today?

Baptist hold to obtaining faith equates with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They don't hold to two baptisms.

 

[DHK]

What is so blatantly obvious is your half truth or lie. You've only presented one aspect of the teaching and not in its entirety. You purposely skipped Which show a disingenuous participation in your behalf. Just a few lines down from where you quoted was this quote. So either you purposely ignored it or are representing a half truth which is a lie. Your argument therefore is moot. You need to approach topic more honestly.

1281 Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized (cf. LG 16).

1277 is the one that states: Baptism is the new birth which puts us in Christ.

This is the statement which you were responding to when you quoted 1281. That puts things in perspective for the reader.

No one is being disingenuous. The RCC defines baptism as the new birth which is heresy. You say look down here at #1281. OK, what does is say. It says "more heresy"--"acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptize.

Note the verbs employed here: act, seek, strive. It is a message of works. It is not "by grace through faith. This is an "accursed" message of works which damns people to hell. (Gal.1:8). Salvation is by faith and faith alone.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

1281 Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized (cf. LG 16).

1277 is the one that states: Baptism is the new birth which puts us in Christ.

This is the statement which you were responding to when you quoted 1281. That puts things in perspective for the reader.

No one is being disingenuous. The RCC defines baptism as the new birth which is heresy. You say look down here at #1281. OK, what does is say. It says "more heresy"--"acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptize.

Note the verbs employed here: act, seek, strive. It is a message of works. It is not "by grace through faith. This is an "accursed" message of works which damns people to hell. (Gal.1:8). Salvation is by faith and faith alone.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

this is what the Catholic Church says in regards to faith

No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit."1 "God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!"'2 This knowledge of faith is possible only in the Holy Spirit: to be in touch with Christ, we must first have been touched by the Holy Spirit. He comes to meet us and kindles faith in us...the Holy Spirit in the Church communicates to us, intimately and personally, the life that originates in the Father and is offered to us in the Son.

and

Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith "man freely commits his entire self to God."78 For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God's will. "The righteous shall live by faith."

Thanks to its supernatural sense of faith, the People of God as a whole never ceases to welcome, to penetrate more deeply and to live more fully from the gift of divine Revelation.

Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"4

 

[DHK]

Look at your above post.
Salvation requires faith + baptism + works + enduring to the end.

If you are going to post one part of the Catechism then post all of the other relevant sections concerning salvation or just admit that it contradicts itself. We know that it does not teach that salvation is by faith alone. In fact that is one of the anathemas that the Council of Trent put forth on that particular doctrine and those that believe in it, and has never yet rescinded it. To read the Council of Trent, those that believe that one is justified by faith alone are damned forever and cannot be saved.

So your above post trying to reconcile faith to salvation is ludicrous.
The RCC requires works. It is a false gospel, a gospel which damns people to hell. Peter spoke of it.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Look at your above post.
Salvation requires faith + baptism + works + enduring to the end.

If you are going to post one part of the Catechism then post all of the other relevant sections concerning salvation or just admit that it contradicts itself. We know that it does not teach that salvation is by faith alone. In fact that is one of the anathemas that the Council of Trent put forth on that particular doctrine and those that believe in it, and has never yet rescinded it. To read the Council of Trent, those that believe that one is justified by faith alone are damned forever and cannot be saved.

So your above post trying to reconcile faith to salvation is ludicrous.
The RCC requires works. It is a false gospel, a gospel which damns people to hell. Peter spoke of it.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

I don't see that in any of the quotes I made. As far as requiring works so do you. Don't you. If you believe the just shall be saved by faith but don't act on their faith (ie works) then are they really saved? Not really because faith is demonstrated by works. Isn't it. But mention to me what work do Catholics preach you must do to be saved? If you don't do it you won't be saved. Surely you can mention one.

 

[DHK]

I don't see that in any of the quotes I made. As far as requiring works so do you. Don't you. If you believe the just shall be saved by faith but don't act on their faith (ie works) then are they really saved? Not really because faith is demonstrated by works. Isn't it. But mention to me what work do Catholics preach you must do to be saved? If you don't do it you won't be saved. Surely you can mention one.

This is works:
'But he who endures to the end
--That quote is never used in the context of salvation.
Salvation is when a person is justified by faith and faith alone, not of works.
But note how in your last quote the RCC throws in works--enduring, working, doing good works to the very end. That is not what the Bible teaches.

 

[Dr. Walter]

this is what the Catholic Church says in regards to faith and

VI. The Necessity of Baptism

1257 The Lord Himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation....Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beattitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are 'reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments."

Apart from exceptions to the rule this is clearly THE RULE for Catholics

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This is works:
'But he who endures to the end
--That quote is never used in the context of salvation.
Salvation is when a person is justified by faith and faith alone, not of works.
But note how in your last quote the RCC throws in works--enduring, working, doing good works to the very end. That is not what the Bible teaches.

endures to the end in belief. Like what Paul was talking about in 2 Timothy

6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith

So, Paul uses the same language here. And Paul is in the bible. Hmmmm. Also have you ever read Blackaby. Review point 3 in his encountering God.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

VI. The Necessity of Baptism

1257 The Lord Himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation....Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beattitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are 'reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments."

Apart from exceptions to the rule this is clearly THE RULE for Catholics

there are always exceptions. However, the key is faith is it not? When we get to the the bottom line?