What is the Religion of the Beast

[blacksheep]

Do we now have Frick & Frack?

I can see what you're all about!

 

[kyredneck]

I can see what you're all about!

Preterist slayers! Frick & Frack!

 

[David Kent]

Why false Christianity? What is false Christianity? And how would 'false Christianity' mobilize and unite, acquire a false prophet, and become the evil depicted in scripture in the last days? The evils we read about these end-time beast is horrific. Do you really think these 'false Christians' or 'churches' would commit the end-time atrocities we read in scripture?

The Roman Catholic Church did with its inquisition and other tribulations it imposed on the church and the Jews.

 

[blacksheep]

The Roman Catholic Church did with its inquisition and other tribulations it imposed on the church and the Jews.

The Roman Catholic Church no longer converts people by the sword. They've snapped of it. There's NO false prophet coming out of any church in the last days. Why would anybody want to convert to Christ when his followers claim the Church is full of false churches and false Christians? Do you really think Christians are going to fulfill the atrocities and abominations mentioned in end-time prophecy? There isn't ONE scripture that implicates Rome or the Church as producing the 'religion of the beast' in the last days and are welcome to quote ONE.

 

[David Kent]

If your a Preterist, I'm sure you will disagree.

Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

I would like to know how Jesus intervened in 70 AD to prevent the world from anihilating itself.

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

I would also like to hear "once again" how war, famine, pestilence, and earthquakes happened within the 5-10 years after Revelation or Mathew was 'supposedly' written.

"For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."

The Expositor’s Bible Commentary says this about the color of the fourth horse:  "‘Pale’ ( chloros ) denotes a yellowish green, the light green of a plant, or the paleness of a sick person in contrast to a healthy appearance." Put bluntly, this horse is the color of death.

"And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for TO SLAY THE THIRD PART OF MEN." (Revelation 9:15)

Well I am not a preterist but I will answer some of this rant anyway.

The days were shortened when Cestius withdrew his troops allowing Christians to escape. They were shortened also when the city suddenly fell so some Jews were not killed but taken as slaves. So many slaves in: fact, that the price of slaves crahed throughout the empire. fullfilliing Deut 28:68, indeed all of the curses in Deut 28 were fulfilled in the Roman war and its immediate aftermath.

The four horses represent four periods of the Roman empire in the second century.
From AD 70 till about 192 was called the period of Imperial Peace wjhen Rome was expanding put peaceful inside the empire (mainly).
1st seal, White horse.; Rome was still expanding by its conquests.
2nd seal, Red Horse. Perioid of crisis, Wars and rebelions throughot the empire. The empire began to decline.
3rd seal, Black horse. The result of the previous period. Prices became sky high. The rider carried a pair of scales. John heard the prices fixed by a voice from heaven. Wheat and barley prices went through the roof, but wine an oil were not touched, luxury items for the rich were not affected but staples for the poor were . In the third century there was a great economic crisis. Money lost most of its value and taxation was crushing.
4th seal Pale or green horse, The decline continued a quarter of the population of the empire perished by war famine, petilence and wild beasts.

• "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."

These happened in the years running up to AD 66. Check you history books of the era,

 

[David Kent]

I interpret every beast in Revelation 13 &17 as complete end-time entities. They are not historical in any way. Every element is FUTURE, none of it is past tense. Daniel 7's four beast are all end-time beast. NONE of them are "past tense." So even as a futurist, I disagree with the futurist view.

The four beasts are tha same four empires as those in Nebuchadnezzah's dream, in Daniel 2. The lion with wings Babylon, see statues in British museum 2nd beast Medis/Persia. It rose on one side, the Medes, but the Persians became the stronger. 3rd Beast Greece. The speed of Allexanders conquest were compared to a leopard. 4th beast undescribable and terrible. Rome.

There are only four empires from the time of Daniel mentioed in scripture, Babylon, Persia and Greece in the Old T.estament, and Rome in the New Testament

 

[David Kent]

The Roman Catholic Church no longer converts people by the sword. They've snapped of it. There's NO false prophet coming out of any church in the last days. Why would anybody want to convert to Christ when his followers claim the Church is full of false churches and false Christians? Do you really think Christians are going to fulfill the atrocities and abominations mentioned in end-time prophecy? There isn't ONE scripture that implicates Rome or the Church as producing the 'religion of the beast' in the last days and are welcome to quote ONE.

Rome had only dropped the sword and the rack, etc because she doesn't have the power nown but she has always said she would do so again. In the late 19th century, Henry Grattan Guinness describe how he visited the inquisition office in Rome, with a Baptist minister. The asked the Dominican in charge. "Has Rome Changed?" His answer was "Rome never changes. As she was in the beginning, so she is now, So shall she ever be." Don't forget the motto of the Roman Church is Semper Edem, Ever the Same.

You will find a record of that visit in a book entitled The City of the Seven Hills, by Mr Guinnes, You will find it online somewhwre.

The Inquisition is called The Holy Office and no doubt still exists today.

 

[David Kent]

I thought that was what you had in mind. Personally, I believe this was emperor worship. The Beast whose fatal wound had been healed was the Roman Empire, which nearly collapsed with Nero's suicide in AD 68. Vespasian restored Rome in 69. Roman society was all about worshipping lots of gods. However, the emperors deemed themselves as gods, even though they also worshipped other gods themselves. What got their goat was that Jews and Christians only worshipped YHWH. Obviously this is not a popular view, especially in a Baptist forum. Still, it's how I see it.

That is about right but I can't see why that should be unpopular on a Bapist Forum.

I would say that you are correct in that The Beast whose fatal wound had been healed was the Roman Empire, but wrong in your timing. Rome split into 10 separate kingdoms which was the fatal wound, but was revived in the papacy. The Popes claims to the title Pont Max, is the title of the Roman emperprs since Julius Ceasar. Caesar was High Priest amd king of the pagan religion and the Pope is now, in the revived empire.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

24 But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 15

Everything He said should first be viewed through that lens. You know, audience relevance? The first rule?:

1. The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed. Charles Hodge

“I am not sent, but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel; as a priest, or as a Saviour and Redeemer, he was sent to make satisfaction and atonement for the sins of all God's elect, and to obtain eternal redemption and salvation for all of them, whether Jews or Gentiles; but as a prophet, in the discharge of his own personal ministry, he was sent by his Father only to the Jews; he was the "minister of the circumcision", Romans 15:8 that is, a minister to the circumcised Jews…..” Gill

Excerpt from 'The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation' by Phillip Mauro:

That our Lord's earthly ministry was first and foremost to the Jews is not at issue. However:
John 10:16. "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice and there will be one flock and one shepherd."
John 12:32. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
Acts 1:8. "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

The Lord Jesus was well aware of the international nature of His ministry. So again I ask, why do you think these things are confined to AD 70?

“SELF-INFLICTED SUFFERINGS

In the light, therefore, of this comparison of scripture with scripture, we think it plain that the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24:14 was that unparalleled calamity, with its unspeakable sufferings, which befell the city and people in A.D. 70.

In the history of "The Wars of the Jews" by Josephus we have a detailed account, written by an eye witness, of the almost unbelievable sufferings of the Jews during the siege of Jerusalem. To this account we will refer later on; but we wish to state at this point that the distresses of those who were hemmed in by the sudden appearance of the Roman armies were peculiar in this respect, namely, that what they endured was mainly self-inflicted. That is to say, they suffered far more from cruelties and tortures inflicted upon one another, than from the common enemy outside the walls. In this strange feature of the case it was surely "a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation, even to that same time" (#Da 12:1).

What went on within the distressed city calls to mind the words of Isaiah:

"Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel (the food) of the fire. No man shall spare his brother. And he shall snatch on the right hand and shall be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand and not be satisfied; they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm. Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh. For all this His anger is not turned away, but His wrath is poured out still" (#Isa 9:19-21).” Mauro, Chap 13, 70 Wks.

This madness that set in on the people was foretold in other places:

For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith Jehovah; but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbor`s hand, and into the hand of his king; and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them. Zech 11:6

And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from Jehovah shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor. Zech 14:13

These verses may well be a prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem, but they would also be a description of what happened in AD 136, or they may be something in store for the future. Whatever the truth may be, they do not indicate that Christ returned to earth in AD 70.

I came to cast fire upon the earth [i.e. 'the land']; and what do I desire, if it is already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Think ye that I am come to give peace in the earth [the land]? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: for there shall be from henceforth five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. Lu 12:49-52

This is something that has been going on since our Lord's time on earth, is going on today and doubtless will continue until His return. The Greek word for 'earth' here is ge. There is no reason to limit the division to the land of Israel. It is something that is going on all over the world right now, especially when Moslems come to Christ.

But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not. Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12:43-45

Again, although the comment is directed towards the Jews, it is something that is going on today, like wars and rumours of wars and the Gospel going out to every nation.
Excerpts from Josephus, 'Wars of the Jews':
[/QUOTE]
Sorry! I don't accept non-Biblical sources in theological discussions. And Josephus is not necessarily an un-biased author. He is eager to justify his patron, Titus.

That something very terrible happened to the Jews in AD 70, and that it was foretold by our Lord is not to be denied. But Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 both suggest a continuing trauma for them, culminating perhaps in the Holocaust, which was far more destructive even than AD 70.
Deuteronomy 28:64ff. 'I will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other......and among those nations you will find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place........' This began in AD 136, but carried on all through the Medieval period, through the Russian pogroms and to the present day.

 

[David Kent]

The 70 AD invasion and destruction of Jerusalem is the type judgment God will again use through the man of sin to bring Israel back to him. The Lord did not supernaturally intervene in any way in 70 AD. There's nothing about the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem that make it so significant to fulfill hundreds of verses of prophecy.

Scripture reference for this please.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

• "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."

These happened in the years running up to AD 66. Check you history books of the era,

Did they stop in AD 70? Are there no wars today, no famines, diseases or earthquakes?

 

[David Kent]

Did they stop in AD 70? Are there no wars today, no famines, diseases or earthquakes?

Of course there are, but the prophecy was to the Roman war. In the short time after the resurection all of those things happened over that short period.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Of course there are, but the prophecy was to the Roman war. In the short time after the resurrection all of those things happened over that short period.

I disagree. "And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars. See to it that you are not troubled, for the end is not yet." In AD 69, the Year of the Four Emperors, the end was coming fast for Israel.

 

[blacksheep]

Well I am not a preterist but I will answer some of this rant anyway.

The days were shortened when Cestius withdrew his troops allowing Christians to escape. They were shortened also when the city suddenly fell so some Jews were not killed but taken as slaves. So many slaves in: fact, that the price of slaves crahed throughout the empire. fullfilliing Deut 28:68, indeed all of the curses in Deut 28 were fulfilled in the Roman war and its immediate aftermath.

The four horses represent four periods of the Roman empire in the second century.
From AD 70 till about 192 was called the period of Imperial Peace wjhen Rome was expanding put peaceful inside the empire (mainly).
1st seal, White horse.; Rome was still expanding by its conquests.
2nd seal, Red Horse. Perioid of crisis, Wars and rebelions throughot the empire. The empire began to decline.
3rd seal, Black horse. The result of the previous period. Prices became sky high. The rider carried a pair of scales. John heard the prices fixed by a voice from heaven. Wheat and barley prices went through the roof, but wine an oil were not touched, luxury items for the rich were not affected but staples for the poor were . In the third century there was a great economic crisis. Money lost most of its value and taxation was crushing.
4th seal Pale or green horse, The decline continued a quarter of the population of the empire perished by war famine, petilence and wild beasts.

• "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."

These happened in the years running up to AD 66. Check you history books of the era,

AH! So you're a historicist, correct?

One could attribute just about anything over the last 2,000 years and claim they fulfill a seal. The Preterist and Historical view destroys the divine purpose of the seals. According to Strong's...

A seal is, "that by which anything is confirmed, proved, authenticated, as by a seal (a token or proof)

Once a seal is opened, its content is no longer a secret. They are designed for our benefit so that we see "the signs of the times." As they pass they allow us to recognize where we are in the timeline of prophecy. They are the opening events to a greater course of coming prophecy with bigger things coming". They don't open slowly or over a long period of time and didn't begin opening centuries ago. They are complete end-time events.

 

[blacksheep]

Scripture reference for this please.

The anti-Christ will be an Assyrian meaning he will come from the geographical area of ancient Assyria. He is mentioned in Isaiah 14 where he is likened to Lucifer.

In Isaiah 10:5,6, the Assyrian is seen to be the rod of God's anger, the club of His wrath, who will be sent against a godless nation, (Israel) against a people who anger God.

The Assyrian will invade and come against Israel (Isaiah 10:5,6; Micah 5:5b,6)

I just commented on Zechariah 12 and that's mentioned everywhere in it.
Daniel says he will destroy the mighty men and holy people. (Israel)

Isaiah 14, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hosea 3:4-5, Zech. 12:10, Zech. 8:3, 6, 7-8, 23,

 

[blacksheep]

The four beasts are tha same four empires as those in Nebuchadnezzah's dream, in Daniel 2. The lion with wings Babylon, see statues in British museum 2nd beast Medis/Persia. It rose on one side, the Medes, but the Persians became the stronger. 3rd Beast Greece. The speed of Allexanders conquest were compared to a leopard. 4th beast undescribable and terrible. Rome.

There are only four empires from the time of Daniel mentioed in scripture, Babylon, Persia and Greece in the Old Testament, and Rome in the New Testament

No they are not, they are completely different prophecies. Daniel 2 is a progression of world empires and the four beast of Daniel 7 are all end-time empires. They have nothing to do with one another.

Daniel 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.

Daniel chapter 7 was written in the first year of Belshazzar who was the last king of Babylon and about 35 years after Daniel's vision of the great statue in chapter 2. Chapter 7 isn't a historical repeat of chapter 2. Why would God find it necessary to repeat the same message and the same sequence of kingdoms of Daniel 2 in chapter 7 by the same author? Were there shortcomings in Daniel 2 that required repetition?

Interpreters say that the Lion of Daniel 7 is Babylon.

How can the lion be Babylon when the date of the vision occurred in the first year of Belshazzar who was the last king of Babylon? The Babylonian Empire had already risen some 50 years before and was on it's way out when Daniel 7 was written! Why would Daniel prophesy about a kingdom RISING that had already risen and had been in existence for about 50 years and soon to end? Some atheist have actually caught onto this blunder and used it to debunk the bible by calling Daniel a false prophet which he would certainly be, since he prophesied about a beast rising that already risen and in existence....for 50 years! Because of all this, it indicates Daniel's 4 beast are all, compete, end-time beast.

Some think that the vision of "wings being plucked off and the heart of a man given to it" refers to Nebuchadnezzar going mad and being restored 7 years later. That's unlikely since that happened about 20 years before Daniel had the vision! AGAIN! Daniel cannot prophesy about something that already occurred! The lion could certainly be today's Iraq. The wings being plucked off could represent the U.S. military leaving Iraq. Some people think maybe it's England, but it can't be ancient Babylon.

 

[Reynolds]

I'm curious to see if minds have changed over the years.

Democrat. I vote Democrat.

 

[blacksheep]

Democrat. I vote Democrat.

You vote Democrat is the religion of the beast? Kool. Democrats are enabling Islam, the religion of the beast as we speak!

 

[Reynolds]

You vote Democrat is the religion of the beast? Kool. Democrats are enabling Islam, the religion of the beast as we speak!

They are definitely anti-Christ.

 

[blacksheep]

They are definitely anti-Christ.

I would say yes, both Democrats and Islam is anti-Christ. Islam is the greatest evil the planet has ever endured. Democrats just don't care how much they enable them. Why would they, 80 - 90% of Muslim's vote Democrat!