What is the Religion of the Beast

[Lodic]

I don't worry about it either. However, there are less than 10 verse in the OT that predict the Lord's first advent, but over 200 that predict his second advent indicating that God found it necessary to inform us about the most troublous times earth would ever endure. Not to mention a time when it would be the most populated.

Very interesting, Bro. Clearly, His second advent is a very big deal. Could you clarify about when it would be the most populated?

 

[blacksheep]

I'm sure we agree that the beast of Rev 13:12 is also known as the False Prophet. I personally view the FP as Apostate Israel, who had joined with Rome. Admittedly, I'm not quite sure about the signs that he does in verse 13.

The harlot (Apostate Israel, in my view) "sits" in an exotic way upon the Beast. To me, this fits, because she is described as a harlot. The language implies a sexual union - "in bed with the Beast", to use today's vernacular. I believe the Beast of the Sea was Rome, represented in part by Nero (666). In Rev 13:12 and following, we have a reference to the beast who had recovered from a fatal wound. This fatal wound was Nero's suicide, which nearly killed the Roman empire. Then we had "the year of 4 emperors", and finally Vespasian became emperor. Vespasian kept the Roman empire together after it nearly fell apart from civil war. Long story short, I don't really see a false religion in these passages. Rather, I see the history of the Jewish War.

Yes I agree the two horned beast is the false prophet. I just don't associate Israel or Nero (or Rome) with it, or Israel with it.

666 was first associated with Nero around 1,800. It's a long shot to say Nero is 666, but that would take a bit of explaining.

The issue with Preterisn is always that, 666 for example,...

EVEN IF the Revelation was written in 60-65 AD, that give very little time for this passage to be fulfilled, esp. since Nero died in 68 AD. That alone is reason enough to look somewhere else for the true meaning of 666.

Rome wasn't pushing its 'false religion' anyway so Nero and Rome just doesn't historically fit this anyway.

 

[blacksheep]

Very interesting, Bro. Clearly, His second advent is a very big deal. Could you clarify about when it would be the most populated?

The earth's population keeps growing and will until the Lord returns. However, it will diminish some due to pestilence etc. in the last days.

 

[Lodic]

Yes I agree the two horned beast is the false prophet. I just don't associate Israel or Nero (or Rome) with it, or Israel with it.

666 was first associated with Nero around 1,800. It's a long shot to say Nero is 666, but that would take a bit of explaining.

The issue with Preterisn is always that, 666 for example,...

EVEN IF the Revelation was written in 60-65 AD, that give very little time for this passage to be fulfilled, esp. since Nero died in 68 AD. That alone is reason enough to look somewhere else for the true meaning of 666.

Rome wasn't pushing its 'false religion' anyway so Nero and Rome just doesn't historically fit this anyway.

I would have been quite surprised if you did associate any of the 1st Century scenario with the Jewish War with Revelation. I believe Nero was understood to be "666" even by the first Christians. However, I don't have the sources handy to back up this claim, and I don't want to just give you a link to a preterist website.

Even with the short time span given if Revelation was written prior to Nero's death, I believe it came as a "supplement" to the Olivet Discourse. You might even say that Revelation is John's expanded version of the OD.

It's not that Rome was pushing any religion, especially since they worshipped a plethora of gods. They didn't like the fact that the Jews and Christians only worshipped one God, and it wasn't the emperor.

 

[Lodic]

The earth's population keeps growing and will until the Lord returns. However, it will diminish some due to pestilence etc. in the last days.

While it makes sense that our population will continue to grow until His return, where does Scripture say that it will diminish some in the last days?

 

[blacksheep]

While it makes sense that our population will continue to grow until His return, where does Scripture say that it will diminish some in the last days?

If your a Preterist, I'm sure you will disagree.

Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

I would like to know how Jesus intervened in 70 AD to prevent the world from anihilating itself.

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

I would also like to hear "once again" how war, famine, pestilence, and earthquakes happened within the 5-10 years after Revelation or Mathew was 'supposedly' written.

"For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."

The Expositor’s Bible Commentary says this about the color of the fourth horse:  "‘Pale’ ( chloros ) denotes a yellowish green, the light green of a plant, or the paleness of a sick person in contrast to a healthy appearance." Put bluntly, this horse is the color of death.

"And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for TO SLAY THE THIRD PART OF MEN." (Revelation 9:15)

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I should clarify my views a bit, since we are looking at Revelation 13 and 17. These are just my personal views, and I could very easily be mistaken. In Rev 13:15, everyone who did not worship the image of the Beast was killed. I personally believe this fits in with emperor worship. The "image of the Beast" may have been a representative of the Beast (Rome / Nero), or something that represented Rome's authority, like a decree or something.

You are quite right about Rome, but it didn't stop with Nero. Greater persecution came under Decius and then Diocletian. Since then there have been persecutions by the Church of Rome down the ages, and in Pakistan today, you can't get a decent job unless you are a Moslem. Hindus and Buddists also persecute Christians. The two beats cannot be confined to the five or so years after you think Revelation was written. But God preserves His own people, which is the subject of Revelation 14:1-5.

Rev 17 is all about the Great Harlot, which I believe was apostate Israel. During this time, the priests had aligned with Rome. I don't want to go into too much detail, as it would become a rabbit trail, and the topic is about the religion of the Beast.

Once again, I don't think the relevance of the book is confined to the five or so years after it was written. Nor is it confined to the age immediately before the end. The Great Harlot is the world down through the ages as it is opposed to God, with all its allurements and faux pleasures (1 John 2:15-17), and its hostility to the righteous requirements of God (Luke 19:14) and to His servants (Mark 12:1-12).

 

[MB]

Why false Christianity? What is false Christianity? And how would 'false Christianity' mobilize and unite, acquire a false prophet, and become the evil depicted in scripture in the last days? The evils we read about these end-time beast is horrific. Do you really think these 'false Christians' or 'churches' would commit the end-time atrocities we read in scripture?

The Catholic church is a good example of a false church. I'm not saying that it is but the Catholic church is who began the unity crusade they have going at this time. I was watching a you tube stream of the Catholic and Mormon church uniting together to stop child abuse . Which seems a bit odd because Mormons don't usually associate them selves with infidels as they call all other religious organizations being so much like the Islamic's.Mormons fit right in to the scheme of things. They too seek to become god's
The reason for it being a type of false Christianity like Mormons or Catholic's is that Satan is an imposter. He will with out a doubt be imitating Christ second coming in order to deceive the whole world. Remember Satan did say He would be like God. At any rate it makes sense to me that he will announce him self as the real God
MB

 

[blacksheep]

You are quite right about Rome, but it didn't stop with Nero. Greater persecution came under Decius and then Diocletian. Since then there have been persecutions by the Church of Rome down the ages, and in Pakistan today, you can't get a decent job unless you are a Moslem. Hindus and Buddists also persecute Christians. The two beats cannot be confined to the five or so years after you think Revelation was written. But God preserves His own people, which is the subject of Revelation 14:1-5.

Once again, I don't think the relevance of the book is confined to the five or so years after it was written. Nor is it confined to the age immediately before the end. The Great Harlot is the world down through the ages as it is opposed to God, with all its allurements and faux pleasures (1 John 2:15-17), and its hostility to the righteous requirements of God (Luke 19:14) and to His servants (Mark 12:1-12).

I interpret every beast in Revelation 13 &17 as complete end-time entities. They are not historical in any way. Every element is FUTURE, none of it is past tense. Daniel 7's four beast are all end-time beast. NONE of them are "past tense." So even as a futurist, I disagree with the futurist view.

 

[Lodic]

If your a Preterist, I'm sure you will disagree.

Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

I would like to know how Jesus intervened in 70 AD to prevent the world from anihilating itself.

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

I would also like to hear "once again" how war, famine, pestilence, and earthquakes happened within the 5-10 years after Revelation or Mathew was 'supposedly' written.

"For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."

The Expositor’s Bible Commentary says this about the color of the fourth horse:  "‘Pale’ ( chloros ) denotes a yellowish green, the light green of a plant, or the paleness of a sick person in contrast to a healthy appearance." Put bluntly, this horse is the color of death.

"And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for TO SLAY THE THIRD PART OF MEN." (Revelation 9:15)

Interesting. I'd never run across that interpretation of that verse before.
Fair questions, Brother.
I believe "the world" and "the earth" in the verses you quote refer to Jerusalem and the surrounding area. How did He intervene? As I see it, these passages refer to His coming in judgment on Jerusalem in AD 70. Regarding the horse which is the color of death, over 1 million Jews were killed during this time. This would include 1/3 of those living in Jerusalem.

War, famine, earthquakes, etc. are pretty well documented in the NT. Historically, there were great several great earthquakes in that time period: Crete around AD 46 (or 47), Rome in AD 51, Laodicea in AD 60, and several others.

 

[blacksheep]

The Catholic church is a good example of a false church. I'm not saying that it is but the Catholic church is who began the unity crusade they have going at this time. I was watching a you tube stream of the Catholic and Mormon church uniting together to stop child abuse . Which seems a bit odd because Mormons don't usually associate them selves with infidels as they call all other religious organizations being so much like the Islamic's.Mormons fit right in to the scheme of things. They too seek to become god's
The reason for it being a type of false Christianity like Mormons or Catholic's is that Satan is an imposter. He will with out a doubt be imitating Christ second coming in order to deceive the whole world. Remember Satan did say He would be like God. At any rate it makes sense to me that he will announce him self as the real God
MB

Is there even ONE verse that implies Rome or Catholicism is a 'beast' in any way, esp. the last days? Or is it mostly presumed because of Christianity's unfavorable opinion of Rome? Catholicism is not a false religion, it is heretical. I don't see any Christian sect or church being involved in any way in the end of days anyway.

 

[Lodic]

You are quite right about Rome, but it didn't stop with Nero. Greater persecution came under Decius and then Diocletian. Since then there have been persecutions by the Church of Rome down the ages, and in Pakistan today, you can't get a decent job unless you are a Moslem. Hindus and Buddists also persecute Christians. The two beats cannot be confined to the five or so years after you think Revelation was written. But God preserves His own people, which is the subject of Revelation 14:1-5.

I must respectfully disagree about the persecutions under Decius or Diocletian being worse than Nero's. That's not to make light of the others you mentioned. Our brothers and sisters in the Middle East are persecuted and killed at an alarming rate, and it seems that many Americans are unaware of it. But I digress.

The two beats cannot be confined to the five or so years after you think Revelation was written. But God preserves His own people, which is the subject of Revelation 14:1-5.

I don't see why the two beasts' activities have to be extended beyond the Jewish War (AD 66-70) Even futurists see this as limited to 7 years. On your other point though, I agree. God does preserve His people as Rev 14 says.

The Great Harlot is the world down through the ages as it is opposed to God, with all its allurements and faux pleasures (1 John 2:15-17), and its hostility to the righteous requirements of God (Luke 19:14) and to His servants (Mark 12:1-12).

Again, I must disagree. However, you certainly make a great point in we have been opposed through temptations and trials all throughout history. This will continue until our Blessed Lord comes, as we both know so well.

 

[MB]

Is there even ONE verse that implies Rome or Catholicism is a 'beast' in any way, esp. the last days? Or is it mostly presumed because of Christianity's unfavorable opinion of Rome? Catholicism is not a false religion, it is heretical. I don't see any Christian sect or church being involved in any way in the end of days anyway.

What about the false prophet who causes all to worship the beast? There is far to much talk of a one world religion in revelations. What do you think heretical means?
MB

 

[Lodic]

What about the false prophet who causes all to worship the beast? There is far to much talk of a one world religion in revelations.
MB

If you don't mind a silly question, what specific verses in Revelation imply a one-world religion?

 

[blacksheep]

Interesting. I'd never run across that interpretation of that verse before.
Fair questions, Brother.
I believe "the world" and "the earth" in the verses you quote refer to Jerusalem and the surrounding area. How did He intervene? As I see it, these passages refer to His coming in judgment on Jerusalem in AD 70. Regarding the horse which is the color of death, over 1 million Jews were killed during this time. This would include 1/3 of those living in Jerusalem.

War, famine, earthquakes, etc. are pretty well documented in the NT. Historically, there were great several great earthquakes in that time period: Crete around AD 46 (or 47), Rome in AD 51, Laodicea in AD 60, and several others.

First off, the earthquakes you cite occurred BEFORE the Revelation and Mathew were written! The word EARTH is Revelation 6:8 likely refers to the REGION of the Middle-East. The word earth isn't used in Revelation 9:14-15 but the river Euphrates IS indicating the region of the Middle-East/Arab world.

The 70 AD invasion and destruction of Jerusalem is the type judgment God will again use through the man of sin to bring Israel back to him. The Lord did not supernaturally intervene in any way in 70 AD. There's nothing about the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem that make it so significant to fulfill hundreds of verses of prophecy.

 

[blacksheep]

What about the false prophet who causes all to worship the beast? There is far to much talk of a one world religion in revelations.
MB

Before I fully answer that question...
Have you ever studied the verses the "experts" use to claim that a one world religion is comin in the last days? Christians believe in this "one world religion" because the EXPERTS have been teaching it for decades.

There is NOT a one world religion coming. The word ALL in Revelation 13:12 & 16 IS THE WORD 'PAS' which has a very limited meaning as opposed to the word 'HOLOS'.

 

[MB]

If you don't mind a silly question, what specific verses in Revelation imply a one-world religion?

Everyone will worship the beast. In Revelations
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev_13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
MB

 

[MB]

Before I fully answer that question...
Have you ever studied the verses the "experts" use to claim that a one world religion is comin in the last days? Christians believe in this "one world religion" because the EXPERTS have been teaching it for decades.

They must be preaching it as they see it

There is NOT a one world religion coming. The word ALL in Revelation 13:12 & 16 IS THE WORD 'PAS' which has a very limited meaning as opposed to the word 'HOLOS'.

You are right about the word" all," Most experts have agreed that it is all inclusive. that's as about as simple as it gets..

As far as one world religion what else would you call it when all the people worship the beast or his image?
MB

 

[Lodic]

First off, the earthquakes you cite occurred BEFORE the Revelation and Mathew were written! The word EARTH is Revelation 6:8 likely refers to the REGION of the Middle-East. The word earth isn't used in Revelation 9:14-15 but the river Euphrates IS indicating the region of the Middle-East/Arab world.

The 70 AD invasion and destruction of Jerusalem is the type judgment God will again use through the man of sin to bring Israel back to him. The Lord did not supernaturally intervene in any way in 70 AD. There's nothing about the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem that make it so significant to fulfill hundreds of verses of prophecy.

True, the quakes occurred earlier. Still, it shows this area was prone to frequent earthquakes. Maybe it still is.
True, "earth" could refer to the entire region, but it could also refer to Jerusalem.
You made a reference to the Euphrates drying up (Rev. 16:12). I can neither confirm nor deny whether the Euphrates dried up at any point during the Jewish War. I can only guess that it probably did, since the rest of Revelation fits with the Jewish War of AD 66-70. The last couple of chapters are still in our future, though.

The events of Revelation are not about the end of the world, but about the end of the Jewish Old Covenant. This is not about a worldwide event, but a specific judgment on apostate Israel. This was such a huge deal that it does indeed warrant the hundreds of prophetic verses.

 

[Lodic]

Everyone will worship the beast. In Revelations
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev_13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
MB

I thought that was what you had in mind. Personally, I believe this was emperor worship. The Beast whose fatal wound had been healed was the Roman Empire, which nearly collapsed with Nero's suicide in AD 68. Vespasian restored Rome in 69. Roman society was all about worshipping lots of gods. However, the emperors deemed themselves as gods, even though they also worshipped other gods themselves. What got their goat was that Jews and Christians only worshipped YHWH. Obviously this is not a popular view, especially in a Baptist forum. Still, it's how I see it.