What is the spiritual state of the Elect Before faith in Jesus?

[OldRegular]

Many Calvinists have posted, and each and every one has tried to change the subject. Go figure.

Is there an issue with the fact we were chosen in eternity, before the foundation of the world? Nope. Now were we chosen corporately or individually? That is the issue.

Romans 8:33 demonstrates that no charge can be brought against the elect. Thus we were not elect as individuals when we were conceived in iniquity, when we were by nature children of wrath.

In order to be a Calvinist, you must say scripture does not mean what it says. Words have no meaning other than the meaning needed to fit with Calvinism. It is indefensible.

That is why they seek to change the subject, hurl insults, and evade discussion of the actual issues.

Once we are chosen individually, then no charge can be brought against God's elect, because once God sets us apart in Christ, we undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation, justified forever.

Consider the number of verses: Romans 9:16 teaches total spiritual inability is a fiction. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches unconditional individual election is a fiction. 1 John 2:2 teaches Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. And Matthew 23:13 teaches irresistible grace is a fiction.
Romans 8:33 teaches individual election occurs after we are conceived in iniquity, after we have lived without mercy, after we were by nature children of wrath, because no charge, not one, can be brought again God's elect.

You are taking Romans 8:33 out of context. I think you know that. You are simp lying creating a straw man in an attempt to do something; I suppose only you know! Consider the passage in context.

Romans 8:28-39
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In this passage Paul is speaking to those who have already experienced salvation. Beginning with Verse 31 this passage is showing among other things the Security of the Believer, the person who has already been saved by God.

 

[pinoybaptist]

What does the word "whosoever" mean to you fellows. By itself, what does "whosoever" say?

which scripture are you referring to ?
the word 'whosoever' is mentioned 163 times in the entire KJ bible.
70 times in the old testament, 93 times in the new.
66 times in the gospels.
27 times in the paulinian and general epistles.

 

[pinoybaptist]

What does the word "whosoever" mean to you fellows. By itself, what does "whosoever" say?

I suppose you mean the scripture in John 3:16, specifically "whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life".

we talked about the word 'perish' and how it relates to timely salvation and not eternal salvation.
the same is meant here.
one may be eternally elect to heaven, but lost in a timely sense, until one is confronted with the gospel, and drawn to Christ, here in time, then he is in possession of everlasting life.

 

[plain_n_simple]

which scripture are you referring to ?
the word 'whosoever' is mentioned 163 times in the entire KJ bible.
70 times in the old testament, 93 times in the new.
66 times in the gospels.
27 times in the paulinian and general epistles.

I'm not referring to a scripture. I'm asking what does the word "whosoever", by itself, standing alone, mean to you?

 

[pinoybaptist]

I'm not referring to a scripture. I'm asking what does the word "whosoever", by itself, standing alone, mean to you?

it means "whoever".

 

[Yeshua1]

never were. the unelect are, and always have been.

Even the Elect, before they were saved, had to be sinners, under the wrath of God and judged guilty in Adam though!

Once the Grace of Jesus of the Cross was applid to us who were chosen in him to get saved by god, THEN we went from being in kingdom of satan to that of Christ...

ALL were in slavery and in sin before salvation thru faith in jesus was obtained!

 

[pinoybaptist]

Even the Elect, before they were saved, had to be sinners, under the wrath of God and judged guilty in Adam though!

Once the Grace of Jesus of the Cross was applid to us who were chosen in him to get saved by god, THEN we went from being in kingdom of satan to that of Christ...

ALL were in slavery and in sin before salvation thru faith in jesus was obtained!

Nobody said the elect were not sinners. The question is were they hellbound or eternal punishment bound and I said no to that. They never were. The eternal covenant for their redemption was made in eternity past and in God's mind it is a sealed deal for every one of His children.
The whole world lieth in darkness does not necessarily mean the whole world is destined for eternal punishment either. Neither can one interpret translation from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light to equate to the redemption of the elect.

 

[Yeshua1]

Nobody said the elect were not sinners. The question is were they hellbound or eternal punishment bound and I said no to that. They never were. The eternal covenant for their redemption was made in eternity past and in God's mind it is a sealed deal for every one of His children.
The whole world lieth in darkness does not necessarily mean the whole world is destined for eternal punishment either. Neither can one interpret translation from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light to equate to the redemption of the elect.

From the viewpoint of God, yes, but not until we receive jesus thru faith are we actually in the same state God sees us as being "in Christ"

 

[pinoybaptist]

From the viewpoint of God, yes, but not until we receive jesus thru faith are we actually in the same state God sees us as being "in Christ"

Now you are getting closer to actually understanding why we PB's speak of eternal salvation being different from timely salvation. Not quite there yet but getting warm.:thumbs:
You sure you want to risk being infected by PB-ism ? :tongue3:

 

[Winman]

Even the Elect, before they were saved, had to be sinners, under the wrath of God and judged guilty in Adam though!

Once the Grace of Jesus of the Cross was applid to us who were chosen in him to get saved by god, THEN we went from being in kingdom of satan to that of Christ...

ALL were in slavery and in sin before salvation thru faith in jesus was obtained!

Boy, you love to throw around that term "in Adam" don't you? You would think this occurs in the scriptures dozens of times by reading your posts.

Truth is, the term "in Adam" occurs just ONCE in all the Bible. That's it, ONCE.

And does it say we are all dead "in Adam". NOPE, it says in Adam all DIE which is FUTURE TENSE.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Is this verse saying all men are born spiritually dead in Adam? NOPE, this verse and this chapter are speaking of physical death ONLY. The entire 15th chapter of 1st Corinthians deals with our physical death, and the resurrection of our physical bodies in the future.

So, you absolutely butcher and misrepresent what the scriptures teach.

Not very wise.

 

[Jerome]

The 1689 London Baptist Assembly declared that:

none can be said to be actually reconciled, justified, or adopted, until they are really implanted into Jesus Christ by faith; and so by virtue of this their union with him, have these fundamental benefits actually conveyed unto them. And this, we conceive, is fully evidenced, because the scripture attributes all these benefits to faith as the instrumental cause of them, Rom. iii. 25. v. 1, ll. Gal. iii. 26. And gives such representation of the state of the elect before faith, as is altogether inconsistent with an actual right in them. Eph. ii. 1, 2, 3, 12.

 

[franklinmonroe]

I'm not referring to a scripture. I'm asking what does the word "whosoever", by itself, standing alone, mean to you?

To me, it means an undesignated individual or an unspecified person; it is singular in number.

WHOSOEVER, pron. [who, so, and ever. ] Any one; any person whatever. Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely. Revelations 22.
-- Webster's 1828 Dictionary​

Notice Webster does NOT use terms such as "everyone" in his definitions.

 

[Yeshua1]

Apostle paul built up his theology in Romans though with the central truth that just as ALL of us were united in Adam in the fall, ALL died spiritually as he did, that ALL in Christ shall be spiritual made whole again!

I am teaching what paul taught, are you?

 

[MB]

Answer;
They are Lost and with out hope. Blind and Naked.
MB

 

[Winman]

Apostle paul built up his theology in Romans though with the central truth that just as ALL of us were united in Adam in the fall, ALL died spiritually as he did, that ALL in Christ shall be spiritual made whole again!

I am teaching what paul taught, are you?

Pure bunk. Show where Paul said all men died spiritually "in Adam".

It was Paul that said he was ALIVE once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and he died. He couldn't possibly be saying he physically died here, so he is saying he spiritually died when he learned the law.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Paul is clearly describing when he learned the law as all young Jewish men do. Paul said he would have not known sin, except for the law, he would have not known lust, except the law said, Thou shalt not covet.

Paul was alive without the law. Sin has no power or authority over a man without law. When Paul learned the law, he became accountable. Sin then convicted him as a sinner and he spiritually died.

He thought the law would lead to life, but he found it led to death, for sin, taking advantage of the law deceived him and slew him.

You have to be alive to die, you have to be alive for someone to kill you. And Paul certainly is not speaking of physical death here, but spiritual.

It is Paul himself who clearly refutes your false doctrine. It is plain to all with an honest heart.

You are NOT teaching what Paul taught whatsoever. You cannot show one word to support your false teaching.

 

[Yeshua1]

Pure bunk. Show where Paul said all men died spiritually "in Adam".

It was Paul that said he was ALIVE once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and he died. He couldn't possibly be saying he physically died here, so he is saying he spiritually died when he learned the law.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Paul is clearly describing when he learned the law as all young Jewish men do. Paul said he would have not known sin, except for the law, he would have not known lust, except the law said, Thou shalt not covet.

Paul was alive without the law. Sin has no power or authority over a man without law. When Paul learned the law, he became accountable. Sin then convicted him as a sinner and he spiritually died.

He thought the law would lead to life, but he found it led to death, for sin, taking advantage of the law deceived him and slew him.

You have to be alive to die, you have to be alive for someone to kill you. And Paul certainly is not speaking of physical death here, but spiritual.

It is Paul himself who clearly refutes your false doctrine. It is plain to all with an honest heart.

You are NOT teaching what Paul taught whatsoever. You cannot show one word to support your false teaching.

Paul was speaking after he got saved by jesus, as once he was reborn again, he then really realised that in himself he was not able to even keep fully one Commandment of God, mucj less all 10 of them!

You must see that the fall killed us all off...

 

[MB]

Paul was speaking after he got saved by jesus, as once he was reborn again, he then really realised that in himself he was not able to even keep fully one Commandment of God, mucj less all 10 of them!

You must see that the fall killed us all off...

Why can't you show scripture proving your claim? If you cannot then your view is not biblical.
MB

 

[salzer mtn]

A sheep has always been a sheep, even when he was a lost sheep. Luke 15:1-7. 11 Thes 2:13. God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation ect. Before a man was ever born in this world God chose a people in the covenant of grace. Eph 1: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world ect. Our standing in the covenant that God made between Him and the Son included the elect is sure and stead fast from eternity past.

 

[Yeshua1]

Why can't you show scripture proving your claim? If you cannot then your view is not biblical.
MB

Romans 7 is the testomony of paul after he was saved, but he was failing to live as he should had been, and Chapter 8 is the revealtion on how he and we are to live by the Spirit!

 

[salzer mtn]

Romans 7 is the testomony of paul after he was saved, but he was failing to live as he should had been, and Chapter 8 is the revealtion on how he and we are to live by the Spirit!

I partly disagree. I agree Rom 7 is describing a man after he is saved but it also is a honest description of a man that truly understands grace and by that understanding it gives him a true understanding of himself.