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What Is This Departure?
- Thread starter TCGreek
- Start date
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The "falling away" in verse 3 is the "apostasia". Those who "fall away" are not true believers From what do they fall away? They fall away from the faith in Christ which he or she has outwardly professed without inward reality. They will be the "professing" Christians who "receive not the love of the truth that they might be saved" in verse 10.
The son of perdition is the Antichrist who will be revealed in the "Day of Christ" which is the period of time from the beginning of the Tribulation to the Millennium. (7 years....the 70th week of Daniel: Daniel 9:24-27)
I am not looking for the Antichrist to be revealed...I am looking for the "blessed hope"...the "glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13) This is the Rapture of the Church. (1 Thess. 4:13-18).
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The "falling away" in verse 3 is the "apostasia". Those who "fall away" are not true believers From what do they fall away? They fall away from the faith in Christ which he or she has outwardly professed without inward reality. They will be the "professing" Christians who "receive not the love of the truth that they might be saved" in verse 10.
The son of perdition is the Antichrist who will be revealed in the "Day of Christ" which is the period of time from the beginning of the Tribulation to the Millennium. (7 years....the 70th week of Daniel: Daniel 9:24-27)
I am not looking for the Antichrist to be revealed...I am looking for the "blessed hope"...the "glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13) This is the Rapture of the Church. (1 Thess. 4:13-18).
Neither am I Linda. I am looking for my redeemer. However, we must understand that tribulation has been the norm for the Christian throughout human history. Not wrath for we are saved from wrath. If this is correct then wouldn't it behoove all Pastors to prepare their flocks for it? There are times that I feel like Jeremiah, of whom I am not worthy to be compared to. Albeit we should be willing to investigate.Linda64 said:
Tell me this, What would bring on the falling away from faith faster than if our pastors were preaching that we will not see the son of perdition? (2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;)
I must say this, Many will be carried away with the thought that their Pastors got it wrong regarding Antichrist and they may just have got it wrong regarding the "rapture". Herein, your falling away.
Now if what I and others read in the scriptures is wrong and our Lord and Savior should appear in the clouds right now I will shout as I drop this flesh and put on that eternal body,
I WAS WRONG, I WAS WRONG, PRAISE GOD ALMIGHTY, MELVIN HALL WAS WRONG!
Meanwhile if it should go the other way, I am humble enough to not boast but to expound further on "What saith the scriptures."
Mel
First of all, the tribulation which Christians go through today is NOTHING like what is going to happen during the 70th week of Daniel! This tribulation is called the Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:7)...also described by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24).Palatka51 said:
On the other hand, the Apostle Paul told the church at Thessalonica to "comfort one another with these words" (1 Thess. 4:18) What words were those?
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
The professing church is already in apostasy...and it is getting worse and worse. Our pastors are to be preaching the gospel of salvation and the saints are to be edified and built up in order to be witnesses to the lost. Time, as we know it, is wrapping up. The LORD Jesus Christ is coming soon to "catch up" His Bride/Church in the air. We need to be about the LORD's work in "Rescuing the Perishing". The Apostle Paul was looking for the "blessed hope" and "loved His appearing" (2 Tim. 4:8)
Our pastor preaches the soon coming of our LORD Jesus in the air for His own---encouraging words and also words of admonition to be ready and share Christ with the lost. Like I said, the professing church is already in apostasy/falling away. The early church of Paul's day was in apostasy too....it's just going to get worse...until Jesus comes!
That is the "glorious appearing" and "blessed hope"!
The Tribulation period (the last 3 1/2 years) is called the Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:7) Jacob is synonymous for Israel. Israel is not the Church. The Rapture of Church-age saints will begin the 70th week of Daniel....awesome prophecy!
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
webdog said:
Amen, Brother Webdog --Preach it! :thumbs:
Tribuation Saints are Jewish/Israeli Saints saved in the Tribulation period.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
webdog said:
Amen, Brother Webdog -- you are so RIGHT ON!
Palatka51 said:
I've put thousands of scriptures together into a picture that explains other scriptures which nobody else is explaining. Though I spent years piecing this together under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and Direciton of the Written Word of God -- it yet remains, there is no one verse that says what Webdog said. The fact there is no one verse that says what Webdog said does NOT make it FALSE, just not mentioned directly in the Bible. Remember, everything in the Bible is true. Not every true thing is in the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that velcro will really be cool for us basketball shaped belly folk - it easily can be used to hold shoes on one's foot. Shoestrings require an agility I don't have anymore.
Here is a non-Biblical proof.
I've heard 3 Messanic Jews (face-to-face) and one other Messanic Jews say on TV that:
When every gentile who is going to be saved gets saved, then G-d is going to come get all the living gentile (and Messanic Jews) saints. Then the Tribulation Period will begin and 'all Israel shall be saved'.
One obvious conclusion to this is that no gentile will be saved in the Tribualation Period -- so all salvations in the Trib Period must be Jewish/Israeli elect, chosen, church folk.
TCGreek said:
What would the Thessolonians think was meant by the word? I think anyone without dispie glasses on knows its a falling away from the faith most likely back into Judaism, a problem Paul was dealing with throughout his ministry.
Dispinsationalism run amok:
http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=165 apostacy=rapture
I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated "apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated "departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Palatka51 said:
That is what you typed. Unfortunately you may have read the scripture to read falsly like this:
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed TO GOD'S CHURCH AGE SAINTS, the son of perdition;)
The Tribulation period starts when the Church Age, mostly gentile, elect chosen saints are raptured out and the son of perdition is revealed unto the lost gentiles and the lost Jewish/Israeli elect chosen saints.
the 'falling away' is the rapture. Some folks get confused because I say that we fall out of our graves into the awainting arms of Jesus. The difference is the orientation of Jesus - is earth in the direction of his back or his front? The difference is rising and falling.
Either way, I'm outta here when the first sound of the last trumpet of the Church Age starts.
What if I'm wrong and we have to go through the Tribulation period to our death? If I'm wrong then God is right:
Rom 8:35-39 (KJV1611 Edition):
Who shall separate vs from the loue of Christ? shall tribulation, or distresse, or persecution, or famine, or nakednesse, or perill, or sword?
36 (As it is written, for thy sake we are killed all the day long, wee are accounted as sheepe for the slaughter.)
37 Nay in all these things wee are more then conquerours, through him that loued vs.
38 For I am perswaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shalbe able to separate vs from the loue of God, which is in Christ Iesus our Lord.
It doesn't say, but I think if we get killed in the Tribualtion Period that we will go to heaven despite what transpires before our death. But our reward will be higher if we die faithful to Messiah Jesus. I just don't feel called to be a martyr nor to receive a martyr's crown.
1Co 13:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
And though I bestowe all my goods to feede the poore, and though I giue my body to bee burned, and haue not charitie, it profiteth me nothing.
Sounds to me like a person can give their body to be burned (they need to do it for the right reason, like everything else). So in my mind we are going to be translated out of this world before the Tribualtion period OR we have signed up for the undesired job of SPEAR CATCHER.
Job 13:15a (KJV1611 Edition):
Though hee slay mee, yet will I trust in him: ...
Which encourages you most?
1. pre-tribualtion rapture
2. getting a martyr's crown after watching your children die a horrible death?
[Sorry, I read what happens in Dufar - Christian men have their wife raped to death, they teen-age boys inducted into the army of terrorists, the teen-age girls (earlier, now they use 12-13 year olds because of aids) become sex slaves, the Babies are impaled as a sign the house is 'cleaned up'. Sorry, Christians already suffer tribulation - I don't think Christians will suffer the Wrath of God nor be around when the Wrath of God is poured out.]
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Ed,
Paul tells us very clear in verse 3 says, DAY(our gathering together/day of Christ of vs.1 and 2) SHALL NOT COME, till we must see apostasy occurs first, now we are already seeing apostasy evrywhere over world, we are in the last days, then we shall face the revealed of Satan(man of sin) to persecute against the Church - vs. 3 and 4.
This 2 Thess. 2:1-4 is very clear telling us, our gathering together/day of Christ shall not come till we must see three things come to pass - apostasy, revealed of man of sin, shall persecute against the Church("sitteth in the temple of God"). This cannot be pretribulationl. It is posttribulational.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Paul tells us very clear in verse 3 says, DAY(our gathering together/day of Christ of vs.1 and 2) SHALL NOT COME, till we must see apostasy occurs first, now we are already seeing apostasy evrywhere over world, we are in the last days, then we shall face the revealed of Satan(man of sin) to persecute against the Church - vs. 3 and 4.
This 2 Thess. 2:1-4 is very clear telling us, our gathering together/day of Christ shall not come till we must see three things come to pass - apostasy, revealed of man of sin, shall persecute against the Church("sitteth in the temple of God"). This cannot be pretribulationl. It is posttribulational.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Yes it does show a very detailed event. Detailed Schedule? Maybe. I am sure that, while the events are in detail, there is no way the Bible or anyone, give us the "day or the hour". Even Jesus is sitting and waiting for Word from The Temple in Heaven to thrust in the sickle for rapture.webdog said:
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Palatka51 said:
Yes, that is too pertinent to ignore.
It says that these who could not be numbered CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION. 1963-1967 I 'came out of Vietnam', that is, I survived the Vietnam War and have all the benefits (and distain) allowed for a non-wounded Vietnam Veteran. The closest I got to 'Vietnam' was Charleston Air Force Base,South Carolina where I helped keep track of AF supply planes going to Vietnam.
This is a proof text of the pre-triblulation Rapture event (a resurrection followed quickly by a rapture). The pre-tribulation Rapture Event sets the stage for the arrival of the Antichrist and the start of Wrath Lite (Tribulation Judgement Period, first half of Daniel's 70th Week)
Thank you Ed. You have indeed contributed tirelessly to this and other threads. Faithfully providing scriptures that solidify your stance on many subjects. However in this case it saddens me that you have said this.Ed Edwards said:
While velcro is not a "Biblical truth" it has nothing to do with the falling away. Nor does mine nor your out of shape mid section.:laugh: That was funny BTW. I was thinking just last night that there has got to be a better way to tie my shoes. You may have answered that prayer. :laugh:
Where is the scripture that says, unequivocally that the Church will not go through tribulation/great tribulation? Please I beg of you to direct me to it and it will be considered with prayer and then I will acquiesce for further study.
Where is scripture that suggests that "All Israel shall be saved"? Scripture has been shown that suggests that we will endure tribulation and even must endure tribulation. Revelation has been sighted that there is a multitude assembled out of every nation that has gone through "Great Tribulation".
Honestly, where do we go now? To astrological charts? How about the Mayan calender? Seems that Jack van Impe has beat you to it.
I'm very sorry, but we must have Holy Scripture.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Statement #1 by Palatka51: //While velcro is not a "Biblical truth" it has nothing to do with the falling away.//
Statement #2 by Palatka51: //Where is the scripture that says, unequivocally that the Church will not go through tribulation/great tribulation? Please I beg of you to direct me to it and it will be considered with prayer and then I will acquiesce for further study.//
Until you understand my velcro discussion (which your statement #1 indicates yhou do not), you will not understand my answer to your statement #2. I say these two things, the first of which I hope (Not 'faith', not 'know') is true:
The Church Age folk will not go through the Tribulation PERIOD JUDGEMENT (WRATH OF GOD).
9/10 of the lost who inner the Tribulation PERIOD JUDGEMENT (WRATH OF GOD) will not make it through the Tribulation either.
If one uses a lot of the scripture pieces to understand eschatology and assembles another picture than the one I -- they might be right. But I usually can find scriptures that don't match and/or internal conflicts in what is said. And just cause somebody else says that what they believe is what Jesus says -- don't mean it is what Jesus said.
Here is my caveat on that matter:
------------------------
I believe the Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that my understanding
of all the Bible is inerrant.
You believe your Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that your understanding
of all your Bible is inerrant.
Surely i have respect enough for my
Brother in Christ that i will allow you your
opinion. If further you believe your
opinion, i will allow that also.
But i will receive the same consideration
for my opinion/belief.
I am speaking of my opinion of what the Bible
said versus your opinion of what the Bible said.
What the Bible said is true, what
the Bible means is your opinion or
is my opinion.
Don't let your opinion of what the Bible meant
get confused with what the Bible said.
Don't let your opinion of what Jesus meant
get confused with what Jesus said.
------------------------
Ed Edwards: //Here is a non-Biblical proof.
Palatka51: //Honestly, where do we go now? To astrological charts? How about the Mayan calender? Seems that Jack van Impe has beat you to it.
I'm very sorry, but we must have Holy Scripture.//
Astrological charts are prohibited (but not real clear) by the Bible.
The Mayan Calender ends abruptly in AD 2012 on our calender. This is because the writing upon the rock where it was written had come to the edge of the rock. Doesn't sound like a good place to get a description of God's will.
Jack van Impe has some good insights into eschatology, but one needs 'try the spirit on each element using, of course, Holy Scripture.
History gives insight into what happens. There are certain truths in the Holy Scriptures that one can understand better if one knows a bit about history, if one has the right history. Do you, Palatka51 know about the East Syrian Church that was the largest branch of the world-wide church about AD 0600-1000? It was nearly destroyed by the rise of Islam. Of course, most of the history of the world was written by the RCC (Roman Catholic Church) and apparently protestants have taken the bait: line, hook, & sinker (which is why the protestants keep spitting led bbs
Did you know that history teaches us that since in 1964 there came an arsnel of weapons in the Soviet Union and USofA that could destoy all life on the face of the planet? (Some say all human life, some say all life PERIOD.) This means that everything in the book of Revelation can be done to humans by humans - EXCEPT FOR THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE. The only part of Revelation that needs God is the resurrection & the rapture -- that is why I think the big resurrection/rapture will be at the start of the Tribulation period. People like Dick van Impe have left films, video CDs, books for those unsaved folks who will be LEFT BEHIND.
Back on topic: The 'departure' of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the 'caught up' of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (also known by the Latin Word 'rapture').
Statement #2 by Palatka51: //Where is the scripture that says, unequivocally that the Church will not go through tribulation/great tribulation? Please I beg of you to direct me to it and it will be considered with prayer and then I will acquiesce for further study.//
Until you understand my velcro discussion (which your statement #1 indicates yhou do not), you will not understand my answer to your statement #2. I say these two things, the first of which I hope (Not 'faith', not 'know') is true:
The Church Age folk will not go through the Tribulation PERIOD JUDGEMENT (WRATH OF GOD).
9/10 of the lost who inner the Tribulation PERIOD JUDGEMENT (WRATH OF GOD) will not make it through the Tribulation either.
If one uses a lot of the scripture pieces to understand eschatology and assembles another picture than the one I -- they might be right. But I usually can find scriptures that don't match and/or internal conflicts in what is said. And just cause somebody else says that what they believe is what Jesus says -- don't mean it is what Jesus said.
Here is my caveat on that matter:
------------------------
I believe the Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that my understanding
of all the Bible is inerrant.
You believe your Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that your understanding
of all your Bible is inerrant.
Surely i have respect enough for my
Brother in Christ that i will allow you your
opinion. If further you believe your
opinion, i will allow that also.
But i will receive the same consideration
for my opinion/belief.
I am speaking of my opinion of what the Bible
said versus your opinion of what the Bible said.
What the Bible said is true, what
the Bible means is your opinion or
is my opinion.
Don't let your opinion of what the Bible meant
get confused with what the Bible said.
Don't let your opinion of what Jesus meant
get confused with what Jesus said.
------------------------
Ed Edwards: //Here is a non-Biblical proof.
Palatka51: //Honestly, where do we go now? To astrological charts? How about the Mayan calender? Seems that Jack van Impe has beat you to it.
I'm very sorry, but we must have Holy Scripture.//
Astrological charts are prohibited (but not real clear) by the Bible.
The Mayan Calender ends abruptly in AD 2012 on our calender. This is because the writing upon the rock where it was written had come to the edge of the rock. Doesn't sound like a good place to get a description of God's will.
Jack van Impe has some good insights into eschatology, but one needs 'try the spirit on each element using, of course, Holy Scripture.
History gives insight into what happens. There are certain truths in the Holy Scriptures that one can understand better if one knows a bit about history, if one has the right history. Do you, Palatka51 know about the East Syrian Church that was the largest branch of the world-wide church about AD 0600-1000? It was nearly destroyed by the rise of Islam. Of course, most of the history of the world was written by the RCC (Roman Catholic Church) and apparently protestants have taken the bait: line, hook, & sinker (which is why the protestants keep spitting led bbs
Did you know that history teaches us that since in 1964 there came an arsnel of weapons in the Soviet Union and USofA that could destoy all life on the face of the planet? (Some say all human life, some say all life PERIOD.) This means that everything in the book of Revelation can be done to humans by humans - EXCEPT FOR THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE. The only part of Revelation that needs God is the resurrection & the rapture -- that is why I think the big resurrection/rapture will be at the start of the Tribulation period. People like Dick van Impe have left films, video CDs, books for those unsaved folks who will be LEFT BEHIND.
Back on topic: The 'departure' of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the 'caught up' of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (also known by the Latin Word 'rapture').
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
//Where is scripture that suggests that "All Israel shall be saved"?//
Romans 11:26
In fact, Romans 11 talks a lot about how the ministry of the Lord toward Israel takes a time out (I call it the 'Church Age' but others might call it 'times of the Gentiles' or 'Gentile Age' it has been going on 2008-33= 1,975 years so far.
//Revelation has been sighted that there is a multitude assembled out of every nation that has gone through "Great Tribulation".//
That would be 'cited'. (Sorry other Ed, I couldn't resist)
No version I recall says 'through' Great Tribulation. The Geneva Bible and KJVs say " came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:14) not "gone through Great Tribulation"
The new TNIV (Today's New International Version) says:
"[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]come out of the great tribulation"
It is all about what it means to 'come out' and it is all opinion, untill it happens. I think it will happen before the Tribulation when Jesus takes we real Christians out of the ground or out of the surface of the earth and takes us to heaven. I sure hope so!
[/FONT]Back on topic: The 'departure' of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the 'caught up' of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (also known by the Latin Word 'rapture').
Romans 11:26
In fact, Romans 11 talks a lot about how the ministry of the Lord toward Israel takes a time out (I call it the 'Church Age' but others might call it 'times of the Gentiles' or 'Gentile Age' it has been going on 2008-33= 1,975 years so far.
//Revelation has been sighted that there is a multitude assembled out of every nation that has gone through "Great Tribulation".//
That would be 'cited'. (Sorry other Ed, I couldn't resist)
No version I recall says 'through' Great Tribulation. The Geneva Bible and KJVs say " came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:14) not "gone through Great Tribulation"
The new TNIV (Today's New International Version) says:
"[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]come out of the great tribulation"
It is all about what it means to 'come out' and it is all opinion, untill it happens. I think it will happen before the Tribulation when Jesus takes we real Christians out of the ground or out of the surface of the earth and takes us to heaven. I sure hope so!
[/FONT]Back on topic: The 'departure' of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the 'caught up' of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (also known by the Latin Word 'rapture').
Study Rev 3:10-11 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." These 2 verses taken together prove the pretrib rapture! In them, Philadelphia is promised to be kept from the testing of the whole earth and everyone in it.Palatka51 said:
But the clincher is vs 11 "...that no man take thy crown!" When are "crowns given out? In heaven (Rev 4:4, 10) BEFORE the Lamb was found to open the first "seal plagues" of the tribulation.
Furthermore, no other group but the true church are promised crowns, of which there are at least 5 given at the judgment seat of Christ. And one of those is the "crown of righteousness" for those who love His appearing at the rapture. Indeed, it is this crown Jesus warns them of losing for it is very easy even for a Christian to be like the "evil servant" in Mt 24:48 saying "My Lord delayeth His coming" (and then go on BB and smite his fellowservants with postrib rapture theology!).
Rom 11:26. But indeed, the pretrib rapture can be verified by Dan 12:2! There it says that "MANY" in their graves will be resurrected to life or shame. What about the others is this only the many resurrected postrib? The others" were raptured already from their graves PRETRIB. Thereby we see that "all Israel" means all OT and trib believers are resurrected postrib!
skypair