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What Is Total Depravity?

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JonShaff

JonShaff

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TCassidy said:
Yes.

If you deny Total Depravity, which means the total man, body, soul, and spirit, then you deny all three parts of man are fallen and unholy. So your denial begs the question, which part of you is perfect and can approach God on the merit of your own holiness?

So, allow me to ask you:

Is your body perfectly holy or was it damaged by the fall?

Is your soul perfectly holy or was it damaged by the fall?

Is your spirit perfectly holy or was it damaged by the fall?

Now please, no ducking and dodging. Each question can be answered with a simple "yes" or "no."
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Of course body, soul and spirit are damaged by the fall. Christ redeemed our spirit, is redeeming our soul, and will redeem our bodies.
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

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JonShaff said:
Of course body, soul and spirit are damaged by the fall. Christ redeemed our spirit, is redeeming our soul, and will redeem our bodies.
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And also the will was damaged beyond repair by mortal man. The will of fallen man became ensnared in sin and became its slave.
 
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JonShaff

JonShaff

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TCassidy said:
Then you believe in total depravity. For that is all it means.

1 down and 4 to go. :D
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I believe in the prescriptions of God's judgments and pronouncements declared in His word and the descriptions of the consequences of sin. None of which that says we cannot respond to God's revelation to man. To say that we are so depraved that we cannot respond to God's revelation is to say something Scripture does not.
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

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JonShaff said:
I believe in the prescriptions of God's judgments and pronouncements declared in His word and the descriptions of the consequences of sin. None of which that says we cannot respond to God's revelation to man. To say that we are so depraved that we cannot respond to God's revelation is to say something Scripture does not.
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But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.[1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB]

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.[1 Corinthians 2:14 NIV]

The lost person can not accept the things of the Spirit because he considers them foolish. Paul writes about this For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.[1 Corinthians 1:18
NIV]

So, yes, the scriptures say that which you claim they do not.
 
HankD

HankD

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JonShaff said:
I believe in the prescriptions of God's judgments and pronouncements declared in His word and the descriptions of the consequences of sin. None of which that says we cannot respond to God's revelation to man. To say that we are so depraved that we cannot respond to God's revelation is to say something Scripture does not.
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Yes we can. But what kind of a response.

Take Cain. God took the time to explain to Cain what He wanted.

So we all see Cain's response. He couldn't kill God so he took it out on his brother.
 
JonShaff

JonShaff

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SovereignGrace said:
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.[1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB]

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.[1 Corinthians 2:14 NIV]

The lost person can not accept the things of the Spirit because he considers them foolish. Paul writes about this For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.[1 Corinthians 1:18
NIV]

So, yes, the scriptures say that which you claim they do not.
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Context my brother

1 Corinthians 2 is dealing with the realities of God's plan of Salvation and how it unfolded. NOBODY that has ever been saved had it all figured out before they "Believed." You trusted in the revelation that God sent His son and Died and Raised from the Dead to forgive you of your sins. You did not have it all worked out prior to being saved, nor did God require that of you. Go back and read the chapter and keep vs. 14 in its proper context.
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

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JonShaff said:
Context my brother

1 Corinthians 2 is dealing with the realities of God's plan of Salvation and how it unfolded. NOBODY that has ever been saved had it all figured out before they "Believed." You trusted in the revelation that God sent His son and Died and Raised from the Dead to forgive you of your sins. You did not have it all worked out prior to being saved, nor did God require that of you. Go back and read the chapter and keep vs. 14 in its proper context.
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The person without the Spirit, i.e. the lost unregenerate person, considers the things of the Spirit foolishness. I have the context just fine, thank you.
 
JonShaff

JonShaff

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SovereignGrace said:
The person without the Spirit, i.e. the lost unregenerate person, considers the things of the Spirit foolishness. I have the context just fine, thank you.
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6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written:
“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

What did God reveal to us that can only be discerned through the Spirit?

Vs. 9--The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

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JonShaff said:
6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written:
“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

What did God reveal to us that can only be discerned through the Spirit?

Vs. 9--The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.
Click to expand...

God HAS revealed it to US by the Spirit. Without the illuminating work of the Spirit, none could understand. That's what TP avers.
 
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