What Is Total Depravity?

[JonShaff]

We must not conflate

God HAS revealed it to US by the Spirit. Without the illuminating work of the Spirit, none could understand. That's what TP avers.

God revealing to us that we are sinners is not what this passage is talking about. You do not need the Spirit of God in you for the Spirit of God to convict you of your sin. I'm not sure what your testimony is like but I spent months under sound biblical teaching and was convicted immeasurably about the guilt of my sin and the need of a Savior. 1 Corinthians 2 is talking about understanding the realities of the Gospel, not the call of repentance and faith toward God.

 

[JonShaff]

You are doing just like Dr. Flowers does...start with man and reason up to God. Shame.

I'm simply keeping the passage in context without fitting it into my theological paradigm.

 

[SovereignGrace]

We must not conflate

God revealing to us that we are sinners is not what this passage is talking about. You do not need the Spirit of God in you for the Spirit of God to convict you of your sin. I'm not sure what your testimony is like but I spent months under sound biblical teaching and was convicted immeasurably about the guilt of my sin and the need of a Savior. 1 Corinthians 2 is talking about understanding the realities of the Gospel, not the call of repentance and faith toward God.

Again, you are making the scriptures say that which you want it to say, and not what it is actually saying.

The lost person can not understand the things of the Spirit because 1) he considers them foolishness and 2) they are Spiritually discerned. I don't know how much clear Paul could have been.

 

[JonShaff]

Again, you are making the scriptures say that which you want it to say, and not what it is actually saying.

The lost person can not understand the things of the Spirit because 1) he considers them foolishness and 2) they are Spiritually discerned. I don't know how much clear Paul could have been.

You are dismissing so much in that text. you are only choosing to use a couple of phrases to make it say what your theological paradigm says. You are dismissing the entire context of the chapter, particularly the section prior to vs. 14.

 

[JonShaff]

You are dismissing so much in that text. you are only choosing to use a couple of phrases to make it say what your theological paradigm says. You are dismissing the entire context of the chapter, particularly the section prior to vs. 14.

Again, you are making the scriptures say that which you want it to say, and not what it is actually saying.

The lost person can not understand the things of the Spirit because 1) he considers them foolishness and 2) they are Spiritually discerned. I don't know how much clear Paul could have been.

1. Yes, a poor Jewish man dying on a Roman Cross is foolishness to an unbeliever who is trying to REASON with God and the Scriptures using his own intellect in order to merit for himself some sort of favor with God.

2. But God did not say you are to figure it all out in order to be saved, He simply said to "BELIEVE." Trust Him at His Word.

3. And THEN will the Spirit of God reveal to you the mysteries of the Gospel and His Son Jesus Christ as depicted in God's Word.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'm simply keeping the passage in context without fitting it into my theological paradigm.

Let's view another passage that Paul wrote that follows along the same lines of 1 Corinthians 2:14...


For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.[Romans 8:5-9]

Paul wrote about the two types of ppl in the world...

--The lost and the saved
--The unregenerate and regenerate

Those who are lost and unregenerate have their minds set upon the things of the flesh, their minds are hostile towards God, and can not please Him.

Those who are saved and regenerate have their minds set upon the things of the Spirit, they no longer have minds that are hostile towards God, and can now please Him.

Take this and transport it to 1 Corinthians 2:14. The lost person can not understand the things of God because he considers them foolish, and can not grasp them because they are Spiritually discerned.

Again, in both places, Paul could not be any clearer if he tried.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You are dismissing so much in that text. you are only choosing to use a couple of phrases to make it say what your theological paradigm says. You are dismissing the entire context of the chapter, particularly the section prior to vs. 14.

No, I am not cherry picking here.

but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.”[1 Corinthians 2:9]

Now, here we see that none have seen, heard, nor accepted it in their hearts what God has prepared for them who love Him. Yes!!! But, by His Spirit, He has revealed them to US, the US being believers. The only way anyone can know these things God has prepared for US is by the illuminating work of the Spirit of God.

Now, He has prepared them for those who love Him. Who are those who love Him? Those who have been born of Him.[John 1:13 and 1 John 4:7, just for starters]

 

[TCassidy]

None of which that says we cannot respond to God's revelation to man.

I have never said we can't.

To say that we are so depraved that we cannot respond to God's revelation is to say something Scripture does not.

This is what I don't understand. I have explained several times what Total Depravity actually means, and you even agreed, then, suddenly, you go right back to the false definition. The Gospel call is universal. Everyone who hears it responds. Some respond positively and some respond negatively, but all responds. But the bible is clear that a positive response is due to God's Grace and not due to man's self-righteousness.

 

[TCassidy]

Maybe he's just afraid to say the words... Doesn't roll off the tongue that sweetly... Brother Glen

I think that may very well be the case. I have seen so many "closet calvinists" who had taught and preached against "calvinists" and "calvinism" for years, even called "calvinists" some pretty terrible names, but one day the light went on and they were finally led into all truth, but were afraid of what their friends, family, and pastor friends would think so they never mention it and never teach or preach about it.

 

[JonShaff]

Let's view another passage that Paul wrote that follows along the same lines of 1 Corinthians 2:14...


For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.[Romans 8:5-9]

Paul wrote about the two types of ppl in the world...

--The lost and the saved
--The unregenerate and regenerate

Those who are lost and unregenerate have their minds set upon the things of the flesh, their minds are hostile towards God, and can not please Him.

Those who are saved and regenerate have their minds set upon the things of the Spirit, they no longer have minds that are hostile towards God, and can now please Him.

Take this and transport it to 1 Corinthians 2:14. The lost person can not understand the things of God because he considers them foolish, and can not grasp them because they are Spiritually discerned.

Again, in both places, Paul could not be any clearer if he tried.

So, where in Scripture does it say you have to understand the mysteries of the Gospel in order to be saved? God simply said, "Believe."

Correct, Lost people do not understand the realities of God's Plan of Salvation--The Lamb of God slain before the foundations of the world. The Realities of Justification, Sanctification, Glorification. Redemption, Sonship, HeirShip, OT foreshadowing, etc etc. You're right. And God does not expect people to understand the fullness of the realities of Eternal life in Christ. He simply calls you to respond to His judgment of sin in the Lord Jesus Christ and His subsequent Resurrection. Take Him at His word.

 

[JonShaff]

I do not need to understand the inner workings of cancer or microbiology, etc. to believe a doctor if he tells me I have cancer.

You guys are setting up straw men by saying 1 Corinthians 2 is saying you cannot understand the things of the Spirit therefore you cannot believe on Christ to be saved.

We are not called to understand the fullness of the Gospel until after we are saved.

Until then we are simply called to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.

I may not be doing a good job explaining myself but one thing I'm assured of--1 Cor. 2 is not talking about the understanding necessary in order to be saved. you can even go back to 1 Cor. 1 where Paul says that by the wisdom of the world you will not know God. What Paul is arguing against is trying to Figure out God using humanistic principles. Paul is saying that you can only know God through the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So, where in Scripture does it say you have to understand the mysteries of the Gospel in order to be saved? God simply said, "Believe."

Correct, Lost people do not understand the realities of God's Plan of Salvation--The Lamb of God slain before the foundations of the world. The Realities of Justification, Sanctification, Glorification. Redemption, Sonship, HeirShip, OT foreshadowing, etc etc. You're right. And God does not expect people to understand the fullness of the realities of Eternal life in Christ. He simply calls you to respond to His judgment of sin in the Lord Jesus Christ and His subsequent Resurrection. Take Him at His word.

I agree that we must believe. However, fallen man will never believe in the God who they consider their enemy. They hate God and will never choose Him outside of His regenerating work via His Spirit.

I say that man is so depraved that he will never choose God because he hate Him, is at enmity with Him, and detests Him. Just like a Jewish man in a concentration camp would never willfully bow a knee to Adolf Hitler.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I do not need to understand the inner workings of cancer or microbiology, etc. to believe a doctor if he tells me I have cancer.

You guys are setting up straw men by saying 1 Corinthians 2 is saying you cannot understand the things of the Spirit therefore you cannot believe on Christ to be saved.

We are not called to understand the fullness of the Gospel until after we are saved.

Until then we are simply called to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.

I may not be doing a good job explaining myself but one thing I'm assured of--1 Cor. 2 is not talking about the understanding necessary in order to be saved. you can even go back to 1 Cor. 1 where Paul says that by the wisdom of the world you will not know God. What Paul is arguing against is trying to Figure out God using humanistic principles. Paul is saying that you can only know God through the Lord Jesus Christ.

I am not saying it, Paul wrote it. Your beef is with God's word, not us Calvinists.

 

[The Archangel]

So, where in Scripture does it say you have to understand the mysteries of the Gospel in order to be saved? God simply said, "Believe."

Correct, Lost people do not understand the realities of God's Plan of Salvation--The Lamb of God slain before the foundations of the world. The Realities of Justification, Sanctification, Glorification. Redemption, Sonship, HeirShip, OT foreshadowing, etc etc. You're right. And God does not expect people to understand the fullness of the realities of Eternal life in Christ. He simply calls you to respond to His judgment of sin in the Lord Jesus Christ and His subsequent Resurrection. Take Him at His word.

The problem here is that you have stated two mutually exclusive things that are--as written--self-contradictory. In one breath you say "God simply said, "Believe." Actually, this is not true. He says "Repent and Believe," but I digress.

But, for the sake of argument, let's say that the command to "Believe" is all that's there and understanding is not needed. Why, then, would you need to explain "Judgment of sin in the Lord Jesus Christ and His subsequent Resurrection?" Out of one side of your mouth you say you don't have to understand the mysteries of the gospel and then you list two things which are absolute foolishness to non-believers.

Furthermore, when you say "Simply believe," what--exactly--are we to believe? Are we to believe this Jesus fellow was a great teacher and we'll be saved? Are we to believe him to be a great man with the Christ-consciousness and well be saved? Are we to believe he found the pathway to Nirvana and we should follow his example on our journey?

You see, one cannot "Simply believe" unless one knows what to believe in. There are certain requirements of assent when it comes to Christ. We have to believe certain things about him--sinless; substitute; resurrected; God-man; etc. Christ's life, death, and resurrection has been given one meaning by the Father Himself. The truth about Christ is propositional and what he is and what he does is not open to our interpretation.

What is more, how do you expect someone to "Simply believe" when Romans 1 tells us what is able to be know about God is plain to everyone, but everyone suppresses the truth in unrighteousness? Not only is your statement self-contradicting, it contradicts the clear teaching of Paul in Romans 1.

The Archangel

 

[JonShaff]

The problem here is that you have stated two mutually exclusive things that are--as written--self-contradictory. In one breath you say "God simply said, "Believe." Actually, this is not true. He says "Repent and Believe," but I digress.

But, for the sake of argument, let's say that the command to "Believe" is all that's there and understanding is not needed. Why, then, would you need to explain "Judgment of sin in the Lord Jesus Christ and His subsequent Resurrection?" Out of one side of your mouth you say you don't have to understand the mysteries of the gospel and then you list two things which are absolute foolishness to non-believers.

Furthermore, when you say "Simply believe," what--exactly--are we to believe? Are we to believe this Jesus fellow was a great teacher and we'll be saved? Are we to believe him to be a great man with the Christ-consciousness and well be saved? Are we to believe he found the pathway to Nirvana and we should follow his example on our journey?

You see, one cannot "Simply believe" unless one knows what to believe in. There are certain requirements of assent when it comes to Christ. We have to believe certain things about him--sinless; substitute; resurrected; God-man; etc. Christ's life, death, and resurrection has been given one meaning by the Father Himself. The truth about Christ is propositional and what he is and what he does is not open to our interpretation.

What is more, how do you expect someone to "Simply believe" when Romans 1 tells us what is able to be know about God is plain to everyone, but everyone suppresses the truth in unrighteousness? Not only is your statement self-contradicting, it contradicts the clear teaching of Paul in Romans 1.

The Archangel

I respectfully disagree with you. On many points. The Spirit reveals to your cold dead heart that you are a sinner in Judgment. Were you born again when you first were shown that in your heart/conscience? No, you were not. You most likely rejected it, just like I did. That didn't mean you weren't shown spiritual truths by the Word and His Spirit.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I do not need to understand the inner workings of cancer or microbiology, etc. to believe a doctor if he tells me I have cancer.

You guys are setting up straw men by saying 1 Corinthians 2 is saying you cannot understand the things of the Spirit therefore you cannot believe on Christ to be saved.

We are not called to understand the fullness of the Gospel until after we are saved.

Until then we are simply called to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.

I may not be doing a good job explaining myself but one thing I'm assured of--1 Cor. 2 is not talking about the understanding necessary in order to be saved. you can even go back to 1 Cor. 1 where Paul says that by the wisdom of the world you will not know God. What Paul is arguing against is trying to Figure out God using humanistic principles. Paul is saying that you can only know God through the Lord Jesus Christ.

You are not grasping enmity that exists betwixt fallen man and God. Fallen man hates God, will never bow a knee to Him, will never believe in Him.

Enmity means hatred, ill will towards those they oppose. That hate God, they have an ill will towards God in their fallen state. In this fallen and depraved state, they will never choose God. Its just not in them to love God. That is why God must first work within them, must quicken them to life, and in this divine quickening, they are given faith and repentance, they exercise them and are saved. All of this happens simultaneously.

As it says And you were dead(nekros) in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),[Ephesians 2:1-5] You see, inwardly, the lost are exactly like those bones in the 'valley of dry bones' in Ezekiel 37. Their lives had been cut off, and in their fallen state, they had no hope of ever living again. Then God sent Ezekiel there and as he spoke the very words God commanded him to speak, bone came to its bone, then sinew and then flesh, and then a wind blew(a picture of the Spirit moving where it wills [John 3:8]) and they came to life. As we speak the words of God, only when God moves through them, do we see dead sinners come to Spiritual life.

 

[JonShaff]

I am not saying it, Paul wrote it. Your beef is with God's word, not us Calvinists.

LoL, come on, Willis! We can discuss Scripture, exposit the text, etc etc, without saying I have beef with God's Word. You know I do not have beef with God's Word. we may have different understanding, but you know full well I do not have beef with God's Word.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I respectfully disagree with you. On many points. The Spirit reveals to your cold dead heart that you are a sinner in Judgment. Were you born again when you first were shown that in your heart/conscience? No, you were not. You most likely rejected it, just like I did. That didn't mean you weren't shown spiritual truths by the Word and His Spirit.

And here you go again, you are starting with man and reasoning up to God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

LoL, come on, Willis! We can discuss Scripture, exposit the text, etc etc, without saying I have beef with God's Word. You know I do not have beef with God's Word. we may have different understanding, but you know full well I do not have beef with God's Word.

It's not an 'LOL', you have been rewriting the narrative to fit your ideology.

 

[JonShaff]

And here you go again, you are starting with man and reasoning up to God.

John 16 speaks of these realities--The Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin vs. 8....He didn't say he would convict the children of God of this, did he?

Of Sin, because they do not believe.

I am reasoning from Scripture, down to my finite brain

EDIT--I will say, it's my understanding that the "conviction of righteousness and Judgment" by the Spirit of God are aspects of His Ministry after the sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ and becomes a child of God--He brings the child of God into righteous living as Christ would if we was personally with Us. And He convinces us that Satan is judged and God will protect us from the evil one.