What Is Total Depravity?

[SovereignGrace]

Galatians is written to Christians.



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Correct. They’re the only ones who have faith.

 

[MartyF]

I obviously wasn't clear. I will try to be as blunt as possible.

Is your body perfectly holy or was it damaged by the fall?

My body is perfectly holy. It was not damaged by "the fall".

Is your soul perfectly holy or was it damaged by the fall?

My soul is perfectly holy. It was not damaged by "the fall".

Is your spirit perfectly holy or was it damaged by the fall?

My spirit is perfectly holy. It was not damaged by "the fall".

Now if you want to explain what you meant by certain terms as I asked before that would be great. I'm sorry if you felt that I was being dishonest with you before.

Marty

 

[1689Dave]

I think of it as a talking penny jumping up and down while asking to be picked up. Of course, pennies can't buy anything and no one wants to be called the insane person and admit the penny is talking to him or her. So, the penny is ignored. Others step on the penny to prove and demonstrate that it is only a penny and not a talking penny.

I think that God is actively trying to have a relationship with his creation as Jesus describes after his diatribe against the Pharisees in Matthew 23. "How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me."

I think it is common for people to think that the reason people don't follow God is because they do not recognize who he is. Early in my life, I forced myself to deal with hundreds of people from varying backgrounds. From my perspective, there are those who know who God is and choose not to be with him.

Marty

The problem with the Jerusalem chicks gathering scenario is, it is not about salvation, but national repentance the Leaders would not allow for. So Judgement came because of this.

If the gospel is an offer based on meeting conditions (law), = whosoever chooses to believe, then anyone can embrace it as easily as picking up a penny. If it is an announcement (preached), = to whosoever believes, it will speak to those who believe what they hear. Any subsequent act of the will is a result of believing (already saved). Even if you think your decision to believe saved you, you had to believe (already saved) before you could decide to believe. Or you would simply have dismissed it all as foolishness.

 

[1689Dave]

Well it seemed a pretty simple process with the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:27. He was reading a portion of Isaiah and had a conversation with Phillip and right away was baptized.



Jesus seemed to imply that it's pretty straightforward that even a child can understand. Would all these children have to be regenerated?

“Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it” Mk 10:13-16

Seems pretty simple to me.

"I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:3).



Well a great Bible verse above and thank God for it. OK he's talking to someone who hasn't come yet for he says "let him take of the water of life freely" The water of life IS eternal life. He hasn't come and taken it as yet so how can you say what you've said below?



So you're saying one must already have eternal life before he can come to receive the gift of eternal life??????? Really I can't understand what you're saying.

Before the New Birth we have only the sinful flesh.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

 

[1689Dave]

Galatians is written to Christians.



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But an apple, the fruit, cannot exist of itself without the tree first producing it.

 

[JonShaff]

Before the New Birth we have only the sinful flesh.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

But an apple, the fruit, cannot exist of itself without the tree first producing it.

Right, lost people are regenerated and made righteous without Faith. And Then they exhibit Faith. NOT! This contradicts what the Scriptures plainly teach.

 

[Batt4Christ]

We are described as dead in our sin and trespass.

When was the last time you saw a dead person reach out for help... or ask to be brought back to life?

That is humanity. We are, because of sin and it’s curse dead. We cannot respond to the gospel unless God breathes life not us.

 

[JonShaff]

When was the last time you saw a dead person reach out for help... or ask to be brought back to life?

This is not an accurate analogy. Let's take the train to the station--Do dead people sin? Do dead people commit crimes? do dead people disobey? No, they do not. Your analogy fails.

The bible says what it means to be dead in your trespasses in sins.

Ephesians 2

*Followed the ways of the World
*conducted ourselves in the lust of the flesh
*fulfilling the desires of the carnal mind

Nowhere in that passage does it teach that a person cannot respond to the Gospel call. Repent and believe.

Look at the passage prior to Eph. 2:1: 1:13

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

[1689Dave]

Right, lost people are regenerated and made righteous without Faith. And Then they exhibit Faith. NOT! This contradicts what the Scriptures plainly teach.

Not if faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

[JonShaff]

Not if faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

So the Holy Spirit comes in and cleanses your Temple/Heart, makes you alive, Gives you Sonship and heirship, forgives you of your sin, reconciles you to the father, unites you with Christ, Makes you righteous and THEN Causes you to produce Faith for the first time? I don't buy it.

You're displaying the effects of cognitive dissonance.

 

[1689Dave]

So the Holy Spirit comes in and cleanses your Temple/Heart, makes you alive, Gives you Sonship and heirship, forgives you of your sin, reconciles you to the father, unites you with Christ, Makes you righteous and THEN Causes you to produce Faith for the first time? I don't buy it.

You're displaying the effects of cognitive dissonance.

If faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, how can it be a fruit of the flesh? You have only the flesh to work with before the new birth.

 

[JonShaff]

If faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, how can it be a fruit of the flesh? You have only the flesh to work with before the new birth.

So believing is impossible? I can't believe what the doctors have informed me? I can't believe reports? I can't believe information my friend told me? Your claims are not only unreasonable, but they are contradictory and fallacious.

 

[InTheLight]

The problem with the Jerusalem chicks gathering scenario is, it is not about salvation, but national repentance the Leaders would not allow for. So Judgement came because of this.

This is awesome! You claim this passage is not about salvation but you stubbornly claim that Ezekiel 36, about Israel getting a new heart, a prophecy about Israel's future restoration, IS ABOUT SALVATION! Even Gentile's salvation.

 

[InTheLight]

We are described as dead in our sin and trespass.

When was the last time you saw a dead person reach out for help... or ask to be brought back to life?

I wouldn't rely on that metaphor too much. The Bible says that we walked even while we were dead in sin...Eph 2:2

 

[Batt4Christ]

I wouldn't rely on that metaphor too much. The Bible says that we walked even while we were dead in sin...Eph 2:2

Spiritually, we are dead before we are given new life.


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[1689Dave]

This is awesome! You claim this passage is not about salvation but you stubbornly claim that Ezekiel 36, about Israel getting a new heart, a prophecy about Israel's future restoration, IS ABOUT SALVATION! Even Gentile's salvation.

The Law could not save. But God brought wrath on them for breaking it, which is the scope of this verse.

 

[1689Dave]

So believing is impossible? I can't believe what the doctors have informed me? I can't believe reports? I can't believe information my friend told me? Your claims are not only unreasonable, but they are contradictory and fallacious.

The flesh cannot discern the true Christ. It only worships idols bearing his name.

 

[Batt4Christ]

This is not an accurate analogy. Let's take the train to the station--Do dead people sin? Do dead people commit crimes? do dead people disobey? No, they do not. Your analogy fails.

The bible says what it means to be dead in your trespasses in sins.

Ephesians 2

*Followed the ways of the World
*conducted ourselves in the lust of the flesh
*fulfilling the desires of the carnal mind

Nowhere in that passage does it teach that a person cannot respond to the Gospel call. Repent and believe.

Look at the passage prior to Eph. 2:1: 1:13

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

You are mixing spiritually dead with physically dead.

You also fail to take Scripture as a whole to produce a consistent hermeneutic.

Jesus clearly states that none cab come unless the Father draws them.

The Old Testament reinforces this, this the reason the writer of Romans referred to it (Romans 3:10-12) Therevare none righteous, no not one...none seek after God.




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[JonShaff]

You are mixing spiritually dead with physically dead.

Pot calling kettle black?

You also fail to take Scripture as a whole to produce a consistent hermeneutic.

How so?

Jesus clearly states that none cab come unless the Father draws them.

That's true

The Old Testament reinforces this, this the reason the writer of Romans referred to it (Romans 3:10-12) Therevare none righteous, no not one...none seek after God.

Right, but God seeks us. That still doesn't prove people cannot respond to the Gospel call.

 

[utilyan]

The problem with the Jerusalem chicks gathering scenario is, it is not about salvation, but national repentance the Leaders would not allow for. So Judgement came because of this.

If the gospel is an offer based on meeting conditions (law), = whosoever chooses to believe, then anyone can embrace it as easily as picking up a penny. If it is an announcement (preached), = to whosoever believes, it will speak to those who believe what they hear. Any subsequent act of the will is a result of believing (already saved). Even if you think your decision to believe saved you, you had to believe (already saved) before you could decide to believe. Or you would simply have dismissed it all as foolishness.

No one would conclude that interpretation reading the verse without over the shoulder "help". Not even classic commentators.

Quote the teacher who you learned this from. We cannot make stuff up as you go along.


Name one person who can pick up a penny without the sustaining power of God. The "without God" cop out works with any action.