What is wrong with Arminianism?

[Tom Butler]

Hello again Straight and Narrow,

I repeat my question: Under the Arminian view, can anyone be saved independently of any prior action by God? Such as, Holy Spirit conviction, drawing, illumination, etc.

Tom B

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
The question is not whether God can force us to do anything. Of course He can. He is all-powerful and all-knowing. The question is whether He allows us to do things that are against His will. The answer to that is YES.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

This was right before the flood. All men except Jonah and his family had rebelled against God and He wiped them out in the deluge.

Uh, refresh my memory (since it ain't as good as it used to be) please! Besides the gourd that he laid claim to, that was not 'his', in the first place, exactly how many animals and other living things of each kind did JONAH

take into the Ark heading for Tarshish? Ya' know, aside from that great fish following the ship hunting for a good meal?

Ed

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

I have a geed excuse. I'm getting old! Point taken, I meant Noah.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Tom Butler:
Hello again Straight and Narrow,

I repeat my question: Under the Arminian view, can anyone be saved independently of any prior action by God? Such as, Holy Spirit conviction, drawing, illumination, etc.

Tom B

I'm getting to the point where none of these questions matter me. I figure if I just follow what Jesus said and not some 16th century theologian I'll be on the right side.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

BTW, yes this involves works.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
I'm getting to the point where none of these questions matter me. I figure if I just follow what Jesus said and not some 16th century theologian I'll be on the right side.

It's probably worth the effort to make sure that Jesus and the 16th century theologian were not on the same side before you reject the theologian. That's why these questions matter.

 

[Tom Butler]

I think I asked this question three times at least:

I repeat my question: Under the Arminian view, can anyone be saved independently of any prior action by God? Such as, Holy Spirit conviction, drawing, illumination, etc.

As an old TV newsman, I learned that when someone doesn't want to answer a question, you can ask it again, even kid him about dodging the question, but he won't answer it. I once grinned at a politician who kept dancing round my question and said, "You're not going to answer this, are you?"
He grinned back and said,"Nope." I went on to another question.

Tom B.

 

[JohnB]

The simple answer is no.

Not sure why no one has answered, but I would not attribute it to evasiveness.

As far as I understand, Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike believe that God must initiate the process of salvation.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
I'm getting to the point where none of these questions matter me. I figure if I just follow what Jesus said and not some 16th century theologian I'll be on the right side.

It's probably worth the effort to make sure that Jesus and the 16th century theologian were not on the same side before you reject the theologian. That's why these questions matter. </font>[/QUOTE]Then do you accept Christ's command as the best description of salvation?

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

BTW, yes this involves works.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Then do you accept Christ's command as the best description of salvation?

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

BTW, yes this involves works.

Was Paul wrong when he said that salvation is "not of works"? You might have enough works to your credit way that God is impressed enough to let you in. Not me. If Christ's work on my behalf is not enough to get me in then I have no hope.

I contend that you misunderstand the words of our Savior.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by whatever:
Was Paul wrong when he said that salvation is "not of works"? You might have enough works to your credit way that God is impressed enough to let you in. Not me. If Christ's work on my behalf is not enough to get me in then I have no hope.

Paul’s number one source of resistance in his preaching of the gospel were the Jews who insisted that one must keep the Law of Moses in order to be saved, and hence he insisted that salvation is not of works, that is, in the Jewish sense of keeping the Law of Moses. He was not writing of the good works that Christ taught that were separate and distinct from the Law of Moses. And we also need to look at the phrase “not of works” in its immediate context,

Eph. 2:8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. (NASB, 1995)

Compare Roman 2:23,
23. You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?

We are saved by grace through faith. Grace is the dynamic by which God saves us; faith is the faith in Christ that is inseparable from obedience to Christ, and hence good works always accompany true faith in Christ.

Let’s not forget that Paul was no more inspired than James, and James wrote,

James 2:14. What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15. If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16. and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18. But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
19. You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26. For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.


Keeping the Law of Moses to the letter cannot save anyone because we all sinned in Adam (Rom. 5:12).

Junk “faith” without good works cannot save anyone because “faith, if it has no works, is dead.” (James 2:17)

Anyone who teaches that anyone is saved by some kind of junk faith that is not efficacious in producing good works such as taught by Christ and James is teaching a damnable doctrine.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Anyone who teaches that anyone is saved by some kind of junk faith that is not efficacious in producing good works such as taught by Christ and James is teaching a damnable doctrine.

On that day many will say to me, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?" And then will I declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."

I double-dog-dare you to find anywhere where I said that a saving faith will not produce works. I only said that works play no part in producing salvation. Many have "faith" without works. Many have "works" without faith. None of those have hope of salvation except they repent and depend on Christ's work on their behalf. His work is my only hope. Whatever works I have done are of no profit to me. I am an unworthy servant, at best I have only done what was my duty.

 

[Craigbythesea]

whatever wrote,

I only said that works play no part in producing salvation.

I suppose that it should shock me when I see a Baptist deliberately and willfully contradicting the words of the brother of our Lord Jesus Christ writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the Holy Bible, but I have been around the Baptist Board for so long that I have gotten used to it. You had better hope that God has more of a sense of humor than I do come judgment day.

James 2:14. What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15. If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16. and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18. But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
19. You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26. For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

 

[whatever]

Again, James is writing of salvation that produces works, not works that produce salvation.

 

[bjonson]

craig,

You do not understand the scriptures.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I quoted James word for word and you falsely accuse me of not understanding the Scriptures. Just exactly how do you suppose I would quote James if I did understand the Scriptures?

And don’t forget, the interpretations of the Scriptures that you imagine to be there were not invented until 1500 years after the Scriptures were written, and they were invented then only due to a new confusion regarding the sovereignty of God.

But, perhaps, like Luther, you would even go so far as to deny the canonicity of the book of James in the New Testament.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Then do you accept Christ's command as the best description of salvation?

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

BTW, yes this involves works.

Was Paul wrong when he said that salvation is "not of works"? You might have enough works to your credit way that God is impressed enough to let you in. Not me. If Christ's work on my behalf is not enough to get me in then I have no hope.

I contend that you misunderstand the words of our Savior. </font>[/QUOTE]Christ's command is clear at least to me. It involves three actions:

1) Deny yourself,

2) Pick up your cross.

3) Follow Him.

Which one of these don't you understand? Personally, I consider a direct command by Jesus the most important type of scripture. Do you agree?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Anyone who teaches that anyone is saved by some kind of junk faith that is not efficacious in producing good works such as taught by Christ and James is teaching a damnable doctrine.

On that day many will say to me, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?" And then will I declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."

I double-dog-dare you to find anywhere where I said that a saving faith will not produce works. I only said that works play no part in producing salvation. Many have "faith" without works. Many have "works" without faith. None of those have hope of salvation except they repent and depend on Christ's work on their behalf. His work is my only hope. Whatever works I have done are of no profit to me. I am an unworthy servant, at best I have only done what was my duty. </font>[/QUOTE]Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Christ's command is clear at least to me. It involves three actions:

1) Deny yourself,

2) Pick up your cross.

3) Follow Him.

Which one of these don't you understand?

I'm not sure why sarcasm is necessary. Have you denied yourself perfectly? Have you taken up your cross perfectly? Are you following Him perfectly?

Personally, I consider a direct command by Jesus the most important type of scripture. Do you agree?

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God. If God said that the red parts were more important than the black parts then I would believe it, but He hasn't, so I don't.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Seriously, what is difficut to understand about MA 16:24? It seems pretty straightford to me. How do you interpret the judgement descriptions is MA 25 and Rev 20?

I'm NOT talking about salvation by works which is by faith and the grace of God. I'm talking about what must happen after a true conversion.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Tom Butler:
I think I asked this question three times at least:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I repeat my question: Under the Arminian view, can anyone be saved independently of any prior action by God? Such as, Holy Spirit conviction, drawing, illumination, etc.

As an old TV newsman, I learned that when someone doesn't want to answer a question, you can ask it again, even kid him about dodging the question, but he won't answer it. I once grinned at a politician who kept dancing round my question and said, "You're not going to answer this, are you?"
He grinned back and said,"Nope." I went on to another question.

Tom B. </font>[/QUOTE]Been anwered on this board I dare say no less the 100 times! The answer has always been yes. Now what?