What is wrong with Arminianism?

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Christ's command is clear at least to me. It involves three actions:

1) Deny yourself,

2) Pick up your cross.

3) Follow Him.

Which one of these don't you understand?

I'm not sure why sarcasm is necessary. Have you denied yourself perfectly? Have you taken up your cross perfectly? Are you following Him perfectly?

Personally, I consider a direct command by Jesus the most important type of scripture. Do you agree?

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God. If God said that the red parts were more important than the black parts then I would believe it, but He hasn't, so I don't. </font>[/QUOTE]Are you denying and mocking the words of Christ? I'd say yes.

 

[Tom Butler]

Tim, the one direct answer I got was "no," until your yes. Honestly, I have never heard a non-Calvinist say yes before. At the very least, Arminians and Calvinists alike have generally agreed about Holy Spirit conviction. If I understand you correctly, you contend that after Christ's death on the cross (which Arminians say guarantees salvation for no one) nothing else is necessary. No conviction, no illumination, nothing else? That God is no longer necessary, and is anxiously waiting on the all-powerful human will? Do you mean that salvation is solely in man's hands?

Tom B.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Did Eve decide to eat the apple? Did the rich young ruler decide that he wouldn't pay the price (literally)?

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Are you denying and mocking the words of Christ? I'd say yes.

You'd be wrong.

Have you denied yourself perfectly? Have you taken up your cross perfectly? Are you following Him perfectly?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

I'm not sure where you came up with this notion of doing these things perfectly. (Well, actually I do have a good idea - Calvinism). Christ never uses the word perfectly. Why are you trying to add to scripture? I suppose it's to try to make the scripture conform to your theology.

In any event, this is what Jesus said on numerous occasions about how to obtain salvation. No, I'm not doing it perfectly but I'm trying to serve Him.

Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[whatever]

So Jesus meant "try to deny yourself, and try to take up your cross, and try to follow Me"? How come you get to add to Scripture but I don't?

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Tom Butler:
Tim, the one direct answer I got was "no," until your yes. Honestly, I have never heard a non-Calvinist say yes before. At the very least, Arminians and Calvinists alike have generally agreed about Holy Spirit conviction. If I understand you correctly, you contend that after Christ's death on the cross (which Arminians say guarantees salvation for no one) nothing else is necessary. No conviction, no illumination, nothing else? That God is no longer necessary, and is anxiously waiting on the all-powerful human will? Do you mean that salvation is solely in man's hands?

Tom B.

Tom you need to listen to yourself at times. Who is claiming that the human will is all powerful. I did not will, nor could I will God to make a way of salvation. It was His will, good pleasure to do so. Now I still cannot respond without the whooing of the Holy Spirit. Our comforter and GUIDE. Now if someone builds me a brand new Mansion and offers it too me. When I say yes take the keys and walk in what gory in building that mansion do I have?! Can I say the work of accepting the keys or the walking into the house makes me a contributor to the building of the mansion?! Absolutely not, unless I am of the calvinist mindset. Then I claim I earned the house and my decision built the house.
Tom. I do not hate the calvnist. I am put off by thier twistinf of terms and def. Trying to make those who disagree with them declaring an unsovereign God. No, I am just declaring God as He does in the bible. I believe.

God Bless
Tim

 

[Timtoolman]

Tom, had to go back and read the post. I am sorry, we all do believe that the Holy Spirit does indeed convict. I meant no. Pt above in post still goes. Let us determind how we believe.

Tim

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by whatever:
So Jesus meant "try to deny yourself, and try to take up your cross, and try to follow Me"? How come you get to add to Scripture but I don't?

Take the scripture at face value. I didn't say anything about adding the word "trying" to it. I'm simply speaking for myself. The Bible says:

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Take the scripture at face value. I didn't say anything about adding the word "trying" to it. I'm simply speaking for myself.

Here's what you said earlier:

In any event, this is what Jesus said on numerous occasions about how to obtain salvation. No, I'm not doing it perfectly but I'm trying to serve Him.

So Jesus gave a command that (you say) is about how to obtain salvation, and you admit that you don't keep that command even though you try to. Don't you see the problem with that? Either Jesus really just meant "try to follow me", even though that's not what He said, or else you have no hope.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Now I still cannot respond without the whooing of the Holy Spirit.

Sorry to jump into this conversation from another, but where, in the Scripture, do you find the Holy Spirit "whooing?" I find Him convicting, regenerating, sealing, baptizing, guiding believers, etc. But never a mention of "whooing."

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Now I still cannot respond without the whooing of the Holy Spirit.

Sorry to jump into this conversation from another, but where, in the Scripture, do you find the Holy Spirit "whooing?" I find Him convicting, regenerating, sealing, baptizing, guiding believers, etc. But never a mention of "whooing." </font>[/QUOTE]I got no problem with convicting. Thats fine.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Now I still cannot respond without the whooing of the Holy Spirit.

Sorry to jump into this conversation from another, but where, in the Scripture, do you find the Holy Spirit "whooing?" I find Him convicting, regenerating, sealing, baptizing, guiding believers, etc. But never a mention of "whooing." </font>[/QUOTE]I got no problem with convicting. Thats fine. </font>[/QUOTE]OK, thanks.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Now if someone builds me a brand new Mansion and offers it too me. When I say yes take the keys and walk in what gory in building that mansion do I have?! Can I say the work of accepting the keys or the walking into the house makes me a contributor to the building of the mansion?! Absolutely not, unless I am of the calvinist mindset. Then I claim I earned the house and my decision built the house.

Tim (if that's your real name ) I like your illustration. Let me put it to you the way I see the Bible would say it. Someone (that would be God) builds you a new mansion. Even though he offers it to you, you (of your own free will) refuse it because you like the mud hole that you currently live in. As a matter of fact you love the mud hole so much you think the mansion is disgusting. You couldn't care less about some stupid mansion, anyway. So this someone wipes the mud out of your eyes so you can see the mansion, picks you up out of the miry clay (notice the biblical reference), carries you to the front door of the mansion, opens your mud-encrusted hand that has been numb from underuse, puts the keys in your hand (which you gladly accept now that you can really see the mansion), and takes you in the mansion where you live happily ever after.

Who gets ALL the glory in this example? You can't even claim credit for accepting the keys. This is the biblical picture.

The problem in your example is not with anyone claiming to build the mansion. The problem is that someone would be able to claim a right to the mansion because of something inherent in them (like faith).

1 Corinthians 1:27-29 But God has chosen (the Greek word for elected) the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

 

[Tom Butler]

Timtoolman said:

...we all do believe that the Holy Spirit does indeed convict

Tim, thanks for your reply. I don't want to misrepresent or mischaracterize your views or that of any other non-Calvinist, so my post was in the form of questions. You acknowledge the Holy Spirit's conviction and wooing as a necessary part of the salvation process. Seems to me that you are different from many non-Calvinists who are willing to sacrifice the sovereignty of God on the altar of mans free will.
I have heard this more than once: "God has done all he can to get people saved." That was the reason for my original question, to see if that means nothing additional, such as conviction, wooing, etc.

Tom B.

 

[Timtoolman]

So Tom and Calvibaptist I appreciate your asking me and the approach. I guess we disagree on the fact that God would pick some one up and force them into the mansion. Or that He would just pick up some and bring them in and leave the rest with no hope. See if God leaves hope with some but withholds it from others, HE is indeed a respector of persons. However I don't believe the Bibel teaches that.
I dont believe that total depravity is total inability.
Even in the election of Isreal where not others saved outside of Isreal by believeing in the God of Isreal? No, I believe salvation is for all and why God gave man choice is alot cleared then why God would shut many many more from salvation then that are saved.
Those are some of the Pts of disagreement between calvinist and non that have been wageing for years in the end it matters not except if a person is saved.

Tim