What is wrong with Calvinism

[russell55]

Are you denying the fact that a doxology is a type of eulogy?

Even if someone give this to you, that the passage in Ephesians 1 is a sort of eulogy, I can't see how you get from that that it oughtn't be used to learn doctrine.

Someone may exaggerate their praise for a human being in a eulogy, so that you have to look for the grains of truth among the hyperbole, but how can someone exaggerate praise for God? Someone giving a eulogy for a human being may ignore the bad things and focus on the good, so that the picture of the person is a little skewed, but there are no bad things about God to ignore so as to skew the picture.

Is the praise given there for things that God really did do or not?

 

[Scott J]

That being true you should not have made the mischaracterization you made in the post I responded.

I will likewise forgive you for misrepresenting what we believe. There was no more provocation intended in my statement than in your implication that calvinism relieves man of responsibility or assigns man's condemnation to God. It doesn't. Man is rightly condemned for his sin. He is responsible... and God is sovereign over salvation.

The balanced position you propose is calvinism vice hyper-calvinism and arminianism.

 

[Ransom]

Craigbythesea said:

Therefore I ask that you post some of them so that our readers will know which one of us has studied, and which one of us has not. And please don’t bother to post the quotes from them that we are all familiar with in which they express some of the fragmentary pieces of the whole of one of the Five Points of Calvinism along with ideas that are very different from those of Calvin, but the whole of one of the Five Points. No, not all five of the Five Points, just one of them will do.

No, I don't think I'll be jumping through your hoops. Demanding endless qualifications is usually the sign of a crackpot.

Instead, I'll just post my answers in my way and at my own convenience. And if that rubs you the wrong way, put some ice on it.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by SAMPLEWOW:
WOW! You folks have a lot to say on this subject. I've learned a lot that I didn't know before.
I only hope you all can still be friends after all this talk.

The funny thing is that we probably can.

I think most here agree significantly on the experential aspect of salvation- that one must be convicted of sin, repent, and believe in Christ claiming Him as their substitute and Savior.

I probably wouldn't have any reservations about evangelizing with very many people on either side of this argument.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
OldRegular wrote,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> You have no logical basis for comparing the passage from Ephesians to a eulogy other than the fact you are unable to refute it!

Are you denying the fact that a doxology is a type of eulogy?

You are quite right, however, that I can not refute a doxology in the Bible. However, the fact that it is a doxology makes it ludicrously absurd to use it as a proof text for a non-biblical doctrine.

</font>[/QUOTE]Even if you were correct in calling the passage from Ephesians 1 a doxology, which I don't necessarily agree with, it is asinine to say that it cannot be used to establish a doctrine. If that were true a substantial part of Scripture would have to be discarded for establishing doctrine including all the Psalms.

Just admit it. You cannot refute what is taught in Ephesians 1 regarding election. Therefore, you use the subterfuge of proof texting, as so many do, to evade the truth. That being said there are many passages of Scripture that prove the doctrine of election and the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation. Certainly someone with 200+ copmmentaries on the Book of Romans should be familiar with Romans 8:28-30:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Then of course there the writings of the Apostle Peter

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

And the Words of Jesus Christ Himself:

John 15:16. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 10:26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
John 10:27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 6:37-39
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

I understand that there are certain people who like to feel as though they had a significant part in their Salvation. There was a time when I believed that I choose Jesus Christ. But the Triune God in His marvelous Grace and through His written Word has taught me otherwise. Salvation is entirely the work of the Triune God in the exercise of His Sovereign Grace.

 

[SAMPLEWOW]

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
Dr Bob

Will you please tell us what a person is that does not preach the same good news or gospel that Jesus preached? Did Paul say Jesus was the Savior of all men or not? Did Jesus say he came to save the world or not? John 3:17,4:42

I would like this question answered as well Dr. Bob.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by SAMPLEWOW:
I would like this question answered as well Dr. Bob.

I'm not worthy of holding Dr. Bob's sermon notes, but I just have to tackle this one.

"Will you please tell us what a person is that does not preach the same good news or gospel that Jesus preached?" - That person is accursed.

"Did Paul say Jesus was the Savior of all men or not?" - He did. He also said that Jesus is especially the Savior of those who believe.

"Did Jesus say he came to save the world or not? John 3:17,4:42" - That's what He said in John 3:17. The Samaritans said it in 4:42. Does that mean that Jesus came to save every single person ever? Think about this - did Jesus fail in what He came to do or did He succeed?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by russell55:

However, they also believe that Christ provided a means of salvation for mankind, and on the basis of this means of salvation, the gospel can be shared with everyone, for there is a way for anyone who believes to be saved.

If what you mean by "potential Savior" is that there is a way provided for any person who believes to be saved, then there is potential for all men in Christ's death. And quite honestly, I don't know what else besides that you think it can mean.

He died so that EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES will be saved. Christ did not die with the purpose of saving unbelievers.

Every single Calvinist would believe that there is some sense in which Christ came to "taste death for everyone."

I would tell someone Christ died for them, and so would many Calvinists I know, since, as explained above, I think that one of the purposes of Christ's death was to provide a means by which human beings could be saved and upon which the gospel can be shared throughout the world.

This is all doubletalk. Saying that Calvinists believe that "Christ provided a means of salvation for mankind" is akin to saying Harvard provides a college education for Americans. Of course, we only mean for those that are smart enough and wealthy enough to take advantage of it. That's not universal college education for everyone including 99% of those who grew up in Harlem.

The same holds true for your argument that under a Calvinist doctrine Christ is a potential savior for everyone. Worse than misleading, this is a false statement.

If Calvinism were a true doctrine, telling just anyone that Christ died for them would require a lot of lying.

None of your assertions are true. You're just trying to muddy the water (and failing).

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
This is all doubletalk. Saying that Calvinists believe that "Christ provided a means of salvation for mankind" is akin to saying Harvard provides a college education for Americans. Of course, we only mean for those that are smart enough and wealthy enough to take advantage of it. That's not universal college education for everyone including 99% of those who grew up in Harlem.

The same holds true for your argument that under a Calvinist doctrine Christ is a potential savior for everyone. Worse than misleading, this is a false statement.

How would you explain 1 Timothy 4:10? How is Christ the Savior of those who are not saved? If that doesn't mean "potential" Savior then what does it mean?

 

[Craigbythesea]

2 Peter 1:2-11

2. Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3. seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5. Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
6. and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
7. and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11. for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SAMPLEWOW:
WOW! You folks have a lot to say on this subject. I've learned a lot that I didn't know before.
I only hope you all can still be friends after all this talk.

The funny thing is that we probably can.
</font>[/QUOTE]Probably! Nobody here REALLY 'had words' before they 'fell out'!

In His grace,
Ed