What is your definition of foreknowledge and...

[percho]

I see we are on page eight and no discussion of the topic, the meaning of foreknow and foreknowledge is occurring because once again the Calvinists are talking about everything and anything except the scriptures using those two words.

If Calvinism could be defended from scripture, they would post scripture, but instead we have one assertion after another.

I will take foreknow and someone else can have foreknowledge.

"foreknow"
occurs 1 time in 1 verse in the KJV
Page 1 / 1 (Rom 8:29 - Rom 8:29)

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. Amos 3:2

Same word (προέγνω) translated foreknew in Romans 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

The very same people whom God did know of all the peoples of the earth.


Next.

 

[percho]

I might as well go all the way.

Foreknowledge.

who doeth all these things. Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

 

[Winman]

My response:

Logically, God is infallible. He knows the future (although you used the term foresee as if he views time linearly). Since God is infallible, then what he knows beforehand cannot be wrong and thus cannot occur any other way than the way he knew would happen. Therefore, even the events he "infallibly predict" are predetermined/predetermining since God cannot be wrong.

So your view of foreknowledge is paradoxical. You argue for a view that means God's predetermined decrees are based on his foreknowledge only to result w/ his foreknowledge becoming a predetermining decree in themselves (assuming your definition of foreknowledge).

I understand what you are saying, I really do. If God knows what will certainly happen, then it cannot happen any other way. This is correct. The difference is, I do not believe that means it was necessarily "determined" to happen that way.

And I believe I can prove my view from scripture.

1 Cor 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

If Satan and his minions (whoever that would include) would have known that Jesus being crucified for the sins of all men and rising for their justification would have defeated Satan (which it did), then they would not have crucified him.

Now this shows that these sinful actions were not determined. They could have done otherwise if they had known what was going on.

Now, I believe it was absolutely determined that Jesus would go to the cross to die for our sins. But I do not believe God ever determines any person to sin, God does not even tempt a person to sin, much less cause any person to sin.

God knew what these men would choose to do. But it was not determined. If they had discovered they were defeating themselves they would not have crucified Jesus.

If God had determined they would commit this sin, then it could NEVER be said that they would not have done this, but that is exactly what the scriptures say.

What I am saying is this, if Judas had known and understood OT prophecy that the Messiah would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, he would not have done so. This knowledge would have influenced his choice. Because he did not know this prophecy was indeed speaking of him personally, he committed this act of betrayal with his own free will. He could have done otherwise, it was not determined. God is not the author of sin and NEVER causes any man to sin at any time.

See, you cannot get past the fact that God can know what free will decisions man will make unless you believe they were determined. I do not believe this as you do.

My best analogy is a game of chess. A master player can easily recognize his opponents strategy and predict his movements. He can even influence and direct his opponent's movements to a great degree. Nevertheless, the opponent is always freely making his own choice, whether wise or unwise. You could be a master player, but your opponent will always move where HE CHOOSES to move.

Play a game of chess with someone and you will understand.

 

[Greektim]

I understand what you are saying, I really do. If God knows what will certainly happen, then it cannot happen any other way. This is correct. The difference is, I do not believe that means it was necessarily "determined" to happen that way.

And I believe I can prove my view from scripture.

1 Cor 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

If Satan and his minions (whoever that would include) would have known that Jesus being crucified for the sins of all men and rising for their justification would have defeated Satan (which it did), then they would not have crucified him.

Now this shows that these sinful actions were not determined. They could have done otherwise if they had known what was going on.

Now, I believe it was absolutely determined that Jesus would go to the cross to die for our sins. But I do not believe God ever determines any person to sin, God does not even tempt a person to sin, much less cause any person to sin.

God knew what these men would choose to do. But it was not determined. If they had discovered they were defeating themselves they would not have crucified Jesus.

If God had determined they would commit this sin, then it could NEVER be said that they would not have done this, but that is exactly what the scriptures say.

What I am saying is this, if Judas had known and understood OT prophecy that the Messiah would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, he would not have done so. This knowledge would have influenced his choice. Because he did not know this prophecy was indeed speaking of him personally, he committed this act of betrayal with his own free will. He could have done otherwise, it was not determined. God is not the author of sin and NEVER causes any man to sin at any time.

See, you cannot get past the fact that God can know what free will decisions man will make unless you believe they were determined. I do not believe this as you do.

My best analogy is a game of chess. A master player can easily recognize his opponents strategy and predict his movements. He can even influence and direct his opponent's movements to a great degree. Nevertheless, the opponent is always freely making his own choice, whether wise or unwise. You could be a master player, but your opponent will always move where HE CHOOSES to move.

Play a game of chess with someone and you will understand.

All that can be rebuffed by noting that despite secondary causation w/ Satan et al., it was still God's will that Jesus be crushed (Isa 53:10). Note... it was God's will.

And I still don't see how your argument negates the above. Even if you have choice, your choices are predetermined already in the sense that God's infallible knowledge knows the outcome. He knows all scenarios, including the one that will come to pass. Since God can't be wrong, it was predetermined. You have a catch 22. Anything else that mentions choice, volition, or possibility is speaking from human terms, something that the Bible admits to doing at times (in the sense of perspective not inspiration). The psalmists do it. Paul does it ("I am speaking in human terms"; Rom. 6:9).

God knew what these men would choose to do. But it was not determined. If they had discovered they were defeating themselves they would not have crucified Jesus.

Your first premise must be taken to its logical conclusion. If God is infallible and "knew what these men would choose to do" then it is determined in the sense that God's credibility as God is on the line. It is determined by logic. It is paradoxically determined. Choice does not rule that out but only confirms it.

 

[OldRegular]

If Satan and his minions (whoever that would include) would have known that Jesus being crucified for the sins of all men and rising for their justification would have defeated Satan (which it did), then they would not have crucified him.

Winman

You are stating something as fact that you cannot possibly know.

Jesus Christ came to die on the cross. Now that is a fact that we can know.

 

[convicted1]

If one takes what you write literally it would mean Universal Salvation.

Where did I ever state that I hold to universal salvation?

Why is it always one extreme or the other? Why must it be either limited or universal in viewing salvation? I am going to show you some things from the OT, that are an allegory of things that were to come.

Numbers 20:6-12
6 And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the Lord appeared unto them.

7 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

8 Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.

9 And Moses took the rod from before the Lord, as He commanded him.

10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?

11 And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.

12 And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Now, here you see where Moses and Aaron were given a command from God Almighty, Himself. They chose to not believe what He said, and did exactly opposite of what God had commanded them to do; and yet God still brought forth the provision of water for His chosen people. Moses and Aaron were punished for disobeying Him, and they were not allowed to enter into the Promised Land due to their unbelief. So, they could not enter into the Promised Land, not for a lack of atonement, but because of a lack of belief.

Hebrews 3:17-19
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


Now, let me show you that the atonement was made for all of God's chosen people, yet, some failed to believe, and perished because of their unbelief.

Exodus 12:5-13
5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses,wherein they shall eat it.

8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.

10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.

11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's passover.

12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.

13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you,when I smite the land of Egypt.


So you see, Brother OldRegular, the atonement was made for the whole household of Israel, but only those who chose to believe, entered into the promised Land.


Leviticus 16:20-22
20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.



Again, Brother OldRegular, you see where the Scapegoat was a shadow of Christ, when the sin of the world was placed upon Him. He bore all sins of all people that day upon His flesh, and condemned sin in the flesh. He made it so that whosoever shall believe that He is, and that He is a Rewarder of them which diligently seek Him, shall be saved. He left no one out when He atoned for their sins. It is because of unbelief why anyone dies lost, and not for a lack of atonement.

 

[Van]

I posted a couple times comments about faulty views of foreknowledge and no one responded (on my own thread no less!!!). I'll try one more time.

Winman said:


My response:

Logically, God is infallible. He knows the future (although you used the term foresee as if he views time linearly). Since God is infallible, then what he knows beforehand cannot be wrong and thus cannot occur any other way than the way he knew would happen. Therefore, even the events he "infallibly predict" are predetermined/predetermining since God cannot be wrong.

So your view of foreknowledge is paradoxical. You argue for a view that means God's predetermined decrees are based on his foreknowledge only to result w/ his foreknowledge becoming a predetermining decree in themselves (assuming your definition of foreknowledge).

Once again we have assertions and no scripture. The Calvinist assertion is that God both exhaustively knows the future and that knowledge fixes the future, i.e. closed theism.

However, the biblically supported position is that the future is not entirely fixed, some things happen by chance, and God intervenes to alter the future according to His purpose and plan. He fulfills His prophecies, bring about what He said, rather than foretelling what He knew would happen in the future.

 

[Van]

Thanks Percho for attempting to explain the meaning of foreknow and foreknowledge, but you need to do more study before you post.

You referenced Romans 8:29. Here is the verse: . For whom He foreknew [proginosko], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first born of many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called these He also justified, and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

This Greek word, transliterated "proginosko" is used in the following texts: Acts 26:5 translated as known but referring to the knowledge about Paul acquired in the past, that he was a faithful Jew, a Pharisee; Romans 11:2 translated as foreknew but referring to the believing Jews who are the children of the promise; and 1 Peter 1:20 translated as foreknown but referring to the pre-incarnate Word being known as the Lamb of God.

Therefore in all four cases where "proginosko" is used it refers to knowing something about a person, and that knowledge was acquired in the past.

By the numbers:

1. Knowing Paul was a faithful Pharisee.

2. Knowing the corporately elected believers would love God and be called according to His purpose.

3. Knowing the corporately elected children of the promise would be faithful believers.

4. Knowing that the Word would become flesh and be the Lamb of God.​

 

[Van]

And by the way, the word translated foreknowledge is not even in the text of Acts 15:18, but does appear in Acts 2:23 and 1 Peter 1:2.

And by the numbers:

1. In Acts 2:23, Christ was put to death according to the foreknowledge of God, i.e. according to God's plan formulated before creation.

2. In 1 Peter 1:2 believing Jews of the dispersion were chosen according to the foreknowledge of God, i.e. according to God's plan formulated before creation.

The plan was simple, whosoever believers in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.​

 

[Greektim]

Once again we have assertions and no scripture. The Calvinist assertion is that God both exhaustively knows the future and that knowledge fixes the future, i.e. closed theism.

However, the biblically supported position is that the future is not entirely fixed, some things happen by chance, and God intervenes to alter the future according to His purpose and plan. He fulfills His prophecies, bring about what He said, rather than foretelling what He knew would happen in the future.

I cannot ascribe to this open view of God. This is ultimately where non-Calvinism eventually leads. Every time I've presented the paradox of a pre-knowledge view of foreknowledge, the non-calvie ends up adopting some form of open theism.

And the OP was prefaced with logic as well as Scripture. If you don't like the perimeters of the thread, then don't post.

 

[percho]

And by the way, the word translated foreknowledge is not even in the text of Acts 15:18, but does appear in Acts 2:23 and 1 Peter 1:2.

And by the numbers:

1. In Acts 2:23, Christ was put to death according to the foreknowledge of God, i.e. according to God's plan formulated before creation.

2. In 1 Peter 1:2 believing Jews of the dispersion were chosen according to the foreknowledge of God, i.e. according to God's plan formulated before creation.

The plan was simple, whosoever believers in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.​

I agree with you, "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

I am sure Jesus had a whole lot of whom he could have chosen to have betrayed him yet he chose Judas. Judas was either the unlucky one or maybe he was the lucky one. What ever he was the one chosen by foreknowledge.​

 

[Winman]

Winman

You are stating something as fact that you cannot possibly know.

Jesus Christ came to die on the cross. Now that is a fact that we can know.

I am telling you what scripture directly says, if Satan had known he was defeating himself, he would not have crucified Jesus.

1 Cor 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

It is not me saying this, it is the word of God.

This verse proves that Satan and his minions crucified Jesus of their own free will. They were not caused to do so, they could have done otherwise.

Now, did God determine to keep this secret so that his purpose would be carried out? Yes. But that is not the same as God actually CAUSING Satan to crucify Jesus, in fact, it proves he did not.

It is like the analogy Skan used to give concerning speeders. Does the state trooper hiding behind a road sign cause folks to speed? No. Now, if the state trooper sat in plain sight everyone would slow down, but just because he hides behind the road sign doesn't mean he CAUSED these persons to speed.

 

[Winman]

Or, another analogy might be like a drug bust. The police have tapped a big drug dealer's phone and listened in on conversations. They have advance knowledge that a big purchase is going to be made down at the docks.

Now, this is like foreknowledge, the police know what is going to take place in advance. They are prepared and hide where they cannot be seen, they have cameras and microphones hidden to record everything. The two parties meet and exchange drugs for a large sum of money, the police come out from hiding and bust the drug dealers.

Now, did the police cause the drug dealers to engage in this illegal activity? No.

God simply knew infallibly in advance what Judas and the chief rulers would do. He allowed it to take place to bring about his purpose, but he in no way CAUSED their actions. And like 1 Cor 2:8 says, if the drug dealers had known what the police were doing, they would have called off this drug sale.

You say God cannot do what men do on a regular basis.

 

[percho]

I understand what you are saying, I really do. If God knows what will certainly happen, then it cannot happen any other way. This is correct. The difference is, I do not believe that means it was necessarily "determined" to happen that way.

And I believe I can prove my view from scripture.

1 Cor 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

If Satan and his minions (whoever that would include) would have known that Jesus being crucified for the sins of all men and rising for their justification would have defeated Satan (which it did), then they would not have crucified him.

Now this shows that these sinful actions were not determined. They could have done otherwise if they had known what was going on.

Now, I believe it was absolutely determined that Jesus would go to the cross to die for our sins. But I do not believe God ever determines any person to sin, God does not even tempt a person to sin, much less cause any person to sin.

God knew what these men would choose to do. But it was not determined. If they had discovered they were defeating themselves they would not have crucified Jesus.

If God had determined they would commit this sin, then it could NEVER be said that they would not have done this, but that is exactly what the scriptures say.

What I am saying is this, if Judas had known and understood OT prophecy that the Messiah would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, he would not have done so. This knowledge would have influenced his choice. Because he did not know this prophecy was indeed speaking of him personally, he committed this act of betrayal with his own free will. He could have done otherwise, it was not determined. God is not the author of sin and NEVER causes any man to sin at any time.

See, you cannot get past the fact that God can know what free will decisions man will make unless you believe they were determined. I do not believe this as you do.

My best analogy is a game of chess. A master player can easily recognize his opponents strategy and predict his movements. He can even influence and direct his opponent's movements to a great degree. Nevertheless, the opponent is always freely making his own choice, whether wise or unwise. You could be a master player, but your opponent will always move where HE CHOOSES to move.

Play a game of chess with someone and you will understand.

I do not disagree with you. What I believe however is that all men would be lined up on the side of Satan were it not for this, "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." which is inclusive of the very mystery spoken of is 1 Cor. 2.

Foreknown by God from the foundation of the world, his works. And from Genesis to the very present God is bringing about his works through those whom he elects for his purpose.

How many people do you think lived at the time of Noah? 100,000? 500,000?
God elected only one, Noah that we know contained the righteousness of God
and maybe also Shem, but we know for sure Noah for the purpose of God was righteous. I might add here, the purpose of God at this time was to in the fulness of time to bring forth from a human woman the Son that would bring forth, the faith, that would redeem mankind.

Look at how few people of all the peoples of the earth God dwelt directly with. Elected. Very, very few. Even when He choose the children of Israel in Egypt, they were few in number compared to all the peoples of the earth. And even among the chosen nation he only worked through a few.

God is doing a work through election, first his Son Jesus and then through those called for his name.

The residue of man will have their turn.

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; in him:

 

[percho]

Or, another analogy might be like a drug bust. The police have tapped a big drug dealer's phone and listened in on conversations. They have advance knowledge that a big purchase is going to be made down at the docks.

Now, this is like foreknowledge, the police know what is going to take place in advance. They are prepared and hide where they cannot be seen, they have cameras and microphones hidden to record everything. The two parties meet and exchange drugs for a large sum of money, the police come out from hiding and bust the drug dealers.

Now, did the police cause the drug dealers to engage in this illegal activity? No.

God simply knew infallibly in advance what Judas and the chief rulers would do. He allowed it to take place to bring about his purpose, but he in no way CAUSED their actions. And like 1 Cor 2:8 says, if the drug dealers had known what the police were doing, they would have called off this drug sale.

You say God cannot do what men do on a regular basis.

And after Judas did what he did, Peter denied Jesus not once but three times and three days later he was still hiding out in fear of the Jews. Now there's a winner. He was a winner because he was a sheep. Called and elected not of works.

 

[Winman]

I do not disagree with you. What I believe however is that all men would be lined up on the side of Satan were it not for this, "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." which is inclusive of the very mystery spoken of is 1 Cor. 2.

Foreknown by God from the foundation of the world, his works. And from Genesis to the very present God is bringing about his works through those whom he elects for his purpose.

How many people do you think lived at the time of Noah? 100,000? 500,000?
God elected only one, Noah that we know contained the righteousness of God
and maybe also Shem, but we know for sure Noah for the purpose of God was righteous. I might add here, the purpose of God at this time was to in the fulness of time to bring forth from a human woman the Son that would bring forth, the faith, that would redeem mankind.

Look at how few people of all the peoples of the earth God dwelt directly with. Elected. Very, very few. Even when He choose the children of Israel in Egypt, they were few in number compared to all the peoples of the earth. And even among the chosen nation he only worked through a few.

God is doing a work through election, first his Son Jesus and then through those called for his name.

The residue of man will have their turn.

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; in him:

Well, I agree Noah was chosen or elected, but I believe that is because Noah and his family were the only believers on earth at that time.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

I believe Noah was the only man left who still had great faith in God, this is why he "found grace in the eyes of the LORD".

The scriptures say it is impossible to please God without faith (Heb 11:6). So, Noah could not have found grace in God's eyes unless he had faith in God.

I don't believe God chose men unconditionally and "zapped" them with faith. I also believe the scriptures show every man has his own faith, God does not believe for you.

No, Noah had learned of God from his family and had great faith in God, this is why God singled him out and chose him to save mankind from total destruction.

You may disagree, but this is my view.

 

[Robert Snow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdh_6E2T_hY

Simple and concise.

 

[Greektim]

Well, I agree Noah was chosen or elected, but I believe that is because Noah and his family were the only believers on earth at that time.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

I believe Noah was the only man left who still had great faith in God, this is why he "found grace in the eyes of the LORD".

The scriptures say it is impossible to please God without faith (Heb 11:6). So, Noah could not have found grace in God's eyes unless he had faith in God.

I don't believe God chose men unconditionally and "zapped" them with faith. I also believe the scriptures show every man has his own faith, God does not believe for you.

No, Noah had learned of God from his family and had great faith in God, this is why God singled him out and chose him to save mankind from total destruction.

You may disagree, but this is my view.

2 problems with your view:

First is the order. Noah found grace and then it was said he was righteous. So if we are going to be strict about this, then it cannot say that Noah found grace b/c he was righteous. Not to mention the context changes in between these passages.

Second is the hypocrisy. You crack on us calvies when we "don't interpret 'all' to mean all", and yet you are doing this here. Are you saying that Noah was not part of humanity of v. 5? If so, then you are doing the same thing you are accusing us of. If not, then it was the regenerative work of God that changed Noah and made him a righteous man.

 

[Van]

I cannot ascribe to this open view of God. This is ultimately where non-Calvinism eventually leads. Every time I've presented the paradox of a pre-knowledge view of foreknowledge, the non-calvie ends up adopting some form of open theism.

And the OP was prefaced with logic as well as Scripture. If you don't like the perimeters of the thread, then don't post.

I presented my understanding of the meaning of the Greek words translated as foreknow and foreknowledge. I do not read the modern English meaning of foreknow back into the Greek text, that would be illogical. Therefore my posts answered your OP question.

Jesus said things happen by chance. Therefore your "closed theism" is unbiblical. Consider this, if Total Spiritual Inability was true, and it is not, then God would not have hardened the hearts of the unbelieving Jews, for they would have had no ability to trust in Christ to begin with. Your views are simply illogical and unbiblical.

The meaning of foreknow/foreknowledge is to formulate or acquire knowledge in the past about a person or circumstance, and then use that knowledge in the present.
Thus actions of God which are according to His redemption plan are according to His foreknowledge.

 

[Winman]

2 problems with your view:

First is the order. Noah found grace and then it was said he was righteous. So if we are going to be strict about this, then it cannot say that Noah found grace b/c he was righteous. Not to mention the context changes in between these passages.

Second is the hypocrisy. You crack on us calvies when we "don't interpret 'all' to mean all", and yet you are doing this here. Are you saying that Noah was not part of humanity of v. 5? If so, then you are doing the same thing you are accusing us of. If not, then it was the regenerative work of God that changed Noah and made him a righteous man.

The scriptures teach that we have access into grace by faith.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

My Pastor was raised a 5 point Calvinist. He was a Calvinist right up to when he went to Bible college. He said it was this verse that showed him Calvinism was wrong. He told this to the whole congregation about a month ago. I was shocked, I had never known he was a Calvinist at one time. He now completely disagrees with it.

Now, I knew this verse years ago, we have access into God's grace through faith. No faith, no grace. God does not go around regenerating unbelievers.

Calvinism teaches everything in exact opposition to scripture. Calvinism teaches that a person receives faith through grace. Total error.

Noah found grace in God's eyes because he had faith. I am not saying he never sinned, ALL men have sinned. Noah got drunk and lay in his tent naked. All the vineyards were destroyed in the flood, so obviously Noah planted this vineyard. He was not perfect, but he was imputed righteous because he believed God.