What kind of virgin will you be?

[James_Newman]

Marcia, you are not seeing the difference between the gift and the prize. We have been fed this notion that when we believe on Jesus, He is going to come and take us to heaven and put a robe on us and feed us at His table and were going to be crowned and reign with Him and this just is not born out by scripture. Jesus died to pay the eternal price for our sins AND to sanctify to Himself a bride to reign with Him, but these are not the same thing. Our sins are forgiven us in the eternal sense if we believe on Him and what He did on the cross, but this doesn't automatically buy us all the benefits of a first-born son. It is not an all-or-nothing proposition, there is a gift to whosoever will believe, and there is a prize for those who will take the gift and then run the race.

 

[Hope of Glory]

In Hebrews 10:26, it's not simply knowledge, it's epignosis - knowledge upon knowledge. It's talking about willful sin; lawlessness.

The unsaved are already dead in their trespasses and sin; they cannot be lawless.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
What does knowing the Lord have to do with eternal salvation?

It doesn't say we never knew Him. It says He never knew us. What does that have to do with salvation? Everything.

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Those He Foreknew -> He predestined -> He called -> He justified -> He glorified.

That's what it has to do with salvation.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
[QB] What does knowing the Lord have to do with eternal salvation?

John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jesus didn't say whosoever knows me, He said believe.

James, a simple word search would have helped you avoid saying this.

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Jesus says eternal life is PRECISELY what you deny - knowing Him.

BTW, we weren't talking about us knowing Him anyway. That is something that happens in the human time-line. We were talking about Him knowing us, which is something that happened before time began and continues throughout eternity.

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
Marcia, you are not seeing the difference between the gift and the prize. We have been fed this notion that when we believe on Jesus, He is going to come and take us to heaven and put a robe on us and feed us at His table and were going to be crowned and reign with Him and this just is not born out by scripture. Jesus died to pay the eternal price for our sins AND to sanctify to Himself a bride to reign with Him, but these are not the same thing. Our sins are forgiven us in the eternal sense if we believe on Him and what He did on the cross, but this doesn't automatically buy us all the benefits of a first-born son. It is not an all-or-nothing proposition, there is a gift to whosoever will believe, and there is a prize for those who will take the gift and then run the race.

Well said, James!

Our 'salvation' is a one time, for all time, free gift! That is the essence of the new birth. It cost you and I nothing.

Our service to Him is an entirely different matter. I believe that Jesus even spoke about counting the cost, somewhere. It can and may well cost us everything up to and including our life. It cost most of the apostles their life; it has cost millions more their lives in the two centuries since then.

In His grace,
Ed

 

[Calvibaptist]

But, Ed, you fail to recognize that the service cannot be divorced from the salvation. There is no biblical category for someone who is saved and yet does not serve. They may be weak in service, but they serve, nonetheless.

Jesus' statement about counting the cost was about salvation (discipleship). It was not about taking a second step after you are saved. It was about deciding whether to even build the tower or not, about whether to even go to war or not. It was not about deciding whether to continue building the tower or continue fighting in the war. It was about beginning the project. Salvation is free, but it might cost you everything, including your life.

James (the apostle) said that faith without works is dead. He did not say that faith without works is still salvific, yet lacking in the second step of service. It is dead. Where there is no "service" (as you put it) there is no faith.

Jesus, and the other biblical writers, never call true believers "workers of iniquity," "evil-doers," or ones that He "never knew." These are all people who THOUGHT they were saved, but were mistaken. They fooled themselves. But, at the judgment, their works will reveal that they truly weren't saved no matter what they claim.

 

[J. Jump]

But, at the judgment, their works will reveal that they truly weren't saved no matter what they claim.

Problem is that the Bible doesn't not indicate this. The judgement on salvation will happen before a person is ever standing before Christ at either the Bema seat or the great white throne.

Works will never be judged as to salvation, because works are not involved in salvation. Epheisians chapter 2 is explicitly clear on this. Works and eternal salvation can not even be mentioned in the same sentence or you don't have grace you have payment. We are saved spiritually by grace based on the work of Christ and nothing else. If we are added to the picture in any way then grace ceases to be grace, but rather payment for work done.

Everyone will have their works judged, but it will have absolutely nothing to do with salvation by grace through faith. That is decided while on this earth.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Salvation is by grace through faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Yet, final judgement is by works.

Romans 2:5-10 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness -- indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The Bible clearly teaches both of these truths. Notice that Romans says "eternal life" is given to those who by "patience in doing good" seek righteousness. It does not say eternal life is given to those who have faith (although that is true).

The only way to balance these two truths is to see them as compatible. Those who believe are justified (saved). When the final judgment comes and they stand before God, their faith has produced the good works that vindicate them before God. Since even the faith was a gift (according to Ephesians 2:8) and it is God who is at work in them both to desire and to work for His good pleasure (Phil 2:13), those works abound to the glory of God, not man.

Either that, or you have to come up with some view that says that "eternal life" is actually only talking about entrance into the millenial kingdom in some passages and that true believers can be left out of that kingdom. That view, however, does not jive with Romans 2, which is talking about the final judgment.

 

[J. Jump]

Romans 2 is not speaking of judgment as to whether someone is saved or not. Eternal ife is speaking of exactly what you said previous that it is whether or not someone experiences life in that 1,000 year period or they don't.

You can save your life (soul) now and lose it is the coming kingdom or your can lose your life (soul) now and find it in the coming kingdom. That is the only way that these two truths will find compatibility.

If works enter into the equation of salvation in any way grace is no longer in the picture. Therefore a judgment of works showing whether or not someone is saved is an impossibility. That judgment comes long before a believer or unbeliever stands for before the Judge.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Judgement According to Works resulting in either heaven or hell:

Revelation 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

I know you will claim that believers are not here, but at least notice that unbelievers are judged according to their works and this judgment results in them being cast into the lake of fire.

2 Corinthians 5:10-11 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men

I know you will say that this is only a judgment of believers for rewards. But noticed that they are judged according to what they have done, whether good or bad. Notice what Paul says next - "Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men."

Why would the judgement of believers works for rewards send us out to persuade men about the terror of the Lord? What does this judgement have to do with unbelievers in your system? Remember this is the beginning of the section talking about us being ambassadors for Christ pleading with men to be reconciled with God.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Notice that those who are left out of the kingdom of heaven are those who practice lawlessness.

2 Corinthians 6:14-15 o not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?

Notice that Paul contrasts believers (righteousness) with unbelievers (lawlessness). Matthew 7 is not talking about Christians being left out of the millenial kingdom. He is talking about unbelievers being left out of heaven at the judgment. They are described as those who practice lawlessness. That is how they are judged, by their works.

Salvation (justification) is always by grace through faith. Final judgment is always seen by works.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Notice that those who are left out of the kingdom of heaven are those who practice lawlessness.

Notice also the seeming contradiction. These people who practiced lawlessness not only did so-called "good" works, they claim to have done them in the name of Jesus.

I think there's an important lesson in here. There's a big difference between doing something of your own will and then tacking "in Jesus' name" on the end in order to make it official, vs. doing something by the power of the Spirit in His will -- in His name, to Him be the Glory.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
Romans 2 is not speaking of judgment as to whether someone is saved or not.

Romans 2 is speaking of whether someone makes it into heaven or ends up in hell. Read the description. He is not talking about two types of believers. He is talking about believers and unbelievers.

Believers - those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality.

Reward - eternal life (vs 7), glory, honor, and peace (vs 10)

Unbelievers - those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness (sounds a lot like 1 John, doesn't it?)

Reward (Wages) - wrath and indignation (vs 8), tribulation and distress (vs 9)

Notice when this all happens: in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God (vs 5)

This does not say that you enter into salvation by works. This says that if you are a believer (justified by faith) then at the final judgement your works will justify you (see James 2).

Eternal ife is speaking of exactly what you said previous that it is whether or not someone experiences life in that 1,000 year period or they don't.

So, there are those who are saved who do not have eternal life? What about Romans 6:23? Is this talking about entrance into the millenial kingdom?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You can save your life (soul) now and lose it is the coming kingdom or your can lose your life (soul) now and find it in the coming kingdom. That is the only way that these two truths will find compatibility.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Are you suggesting that I can be saved now, and eventually unsaved in the kingdom? Or that I can be alive physically now, and yet die physically in the millenial kingdom?

If works enter into the equation of salvation in any way grace is no longer in the picture.

If salvation is by works, or works earn salvation, you are correct, it has nothing to do with grace. This is not what I said. Justification is by grace through faith.

Therefore a judgment of works showing whether or not someone is saved is an impossibility.

But this is exactly what the Scriptures show. This is what James said.

James 2:17-18 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

This is what Jesus said.

John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

This is what 1 John says.

1 John 3:10-11 - By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

That judgment comes long before a believer or unbeliever stands for before the Judge.

I'm sure we agree on a lot of things. Salvation is wholely of God. Salvation is by grace through faith. Works are not a means of salvation in any sense of the word.

BUT, biblically, works are a necessary evidence of salvation. If you get to the final judgment, thinking you are saved when you are not, it will be your works that will reveal it. And Jesus will say, "Depart from Me you workers of iniquity. For I never knew you."

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Notice that those who are left out of the kingdom of heaven are those who practice lawlessness.

Notice also the seeming contradiction. These people who practiced lawlessness not only did so-called "good" works, they claim to have done them in the name of Jesus.

I think there's an important lesson in here. There's a big difference between doing something of your own will and then tacking "in Jesus' name" on the end in order to make it official, vs. doing something by the power of the Spirit in His will -- in His name, to Him be the Glory. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree that these people did a lot of things they thought were great. We would look at them and think they were the greatest believers around. Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart. These people are condemned as the Pharisees because with their lips they did worship Him, but their hearts were far from Him.

Motivation is a part of works. If I live a life like Mother Theresa, yet have not love, I am wasted. The work is not "wrought in God." Those works are the only ones that matter. This is why I don't try to make judgements about people's salvation. I may think one thing about them when the complete opposite is true. I don't look at the motivation behind what they do. Only God can do that. At the judgement, the motivation will come to light.

1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Those who believe are justified (saved).

Until you quit equating salvation with justification, you will see many seeming contradictions in Scripture.

Salavation is an event; justification is a process. There will be many saved people who will be ashamed at the Judgment Seat of Christ. But, even though all their works be burned, they themselves will still be saved. The unsaved do not appear at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and if you claim that they can then be cast into the lake of fire forever, you are proclaiming a works based spiritual salvation.

You cannot call him Lord, except through the powere of the Holy Spirit. So are you now claiming that the Holy Spirit indwells unsaved people?

No, they did good works of their own volition, but they did it in the Lord's name, and they gave him credit for it. They called him "Lord". They were his servants. But, they still practiced lawlessness (iniquity).

Do you see lawlessness in the church today? If not, then you are blind. Churches do what is right in their own eyes, ordaining women, homosexuals, and all other sorts. They proclaim man-made laws to the same level as God's laws, such as declaring that women cannot wear pants, men can't wear pants, girls can't wear t-shirts, and on and on and on. It's all lawlessness, and it's all done by saved people, and it's all done in the name of the Lord, only it's without his approval.

They are Christians, and they practice lawlessness (iniquity).

 

[J. Jump]

Calvibaptist your final judgment has saved and unsaved standing at the same judgment seat. Nowhere in Scripture is that portrayed. The saved are judged and then the lost are judged. The two are never together.

So a person can't get to the bema judgment thinking that he is saved and then find out oops I wasn't saved at all...sorry I'll wait for the great white throne judgment now. And then fall over dead again.

If a person makes it to the bema seat judgment they are a saved individual. Now works will be judged there whether good or whether bad. For some reason we have it in our minds that a Christian is incapable of doing bad works. The Bible says otherwise. A Christian is perfectly capable of doing something in the flesh and then attaching Jesus name to it and calling it Holy. Jesus will say depart from me you workers of iniquity.

See the thing that is overlooked in the Lord, Lord passage is not a rebuke from Jesus saying that they were unsaved, but a rebuke saying that they were workers of iniquity.

Jesus told Peter one time that Peter was focused on the flesh while Christ was focusing on the Spiritual. If we continue to walk after the flesh then we will reap corruption. But if we die to self and walk after the Spirit then we will reap accordingly.

Now as to what happens to a person that is cast aside I am not exactly sure, as I am still studying that through for specifics. However we can see a glimpse of what happens in the story of Abraham and Lot. Abraham resides on the mountain in the presence of the Lord, while Lot finally makes it to the mountain, but he dwells in a cave in shame.

People that do not become part of the bride will not be "lost" folks, but they will not experience ruling and reigning with Christ as part of the bride or as co-heir, because of their lack of obedience.

Not all Christians are obedient to what God calls them to do. Some Christians want to do what they want to do and then call it God's will. But that will be unacceptable during the kingdom. All I know is that after that 1,000 years these people will have gotten what they should have gotten during this lifetime, because they will spend eternity with God because they are saved individuals.

Once again when we talk about the judgment of works we are not talking about a judgment for eternal purposes we are talking about a judgment for the 1,000-year purpose. Eternity is based on whether or not we believe period. Those that don't believe are condemned already. It's a done deal.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
They are Christians, and they practice lawlessness (iniquity).

I would argue that many of these are not Christians at all. They are apostate. I don't mean apostate as in "the same person who used to believe has fallen away from his belief", but "they call themselves Christians, continue to say with their lips that Jesus is Lord, but they have abandoned the true faith and are followers of their own man-made beliefs".

Just because they call themselves Christians and are part of what is considered a Christian church doesn't mean they are Christians.

Oh, and for what it's worth, no one can say (from their heart) that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. Virtually anyone can say the words.

 

[J. Jump]

But Jesus didn't rebuke them for calling Him Lord. He rebuked them for the works, which were works of lawlessness.

Here are the verses in question: 21 "Not R237 everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 "Many R238 will say to Me on that R239 day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' F134 23 "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART R240 FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Notice that we are talking about entrance into the kingdom here (v. 21). A person must be a saved individual before entrance or non-entrance is even a question. We must be born from above to see the kingdom of God (John 3). But we are told in v. 21 that if we want entrance and not just seeing then we must do the will of the Father. Now if this is talking about salvation by grace then works have entered the mix.

So salvation by grace through faith is not even in question here in this passage, because what is in question is works. Eternal salvation and works can't even be in the same picture or grace is not present.

 

[J. Jump]

Another thing we have to remember is that Christ did say they were lying about their works, so they really were casting out demons and performing miracles.

Now demons can manifest signs, wonders and miracles. But the Bible tells us that demons can not cast themselves out. So these people could not have been lost or how could they have cast out demons?

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
But Jesus didn't rebuke them for calling Him Lord. He rebuked them for the works, which were works of lawlessness.

Why would Jesus rebuke them for calling Him Lord? He is Lord. And every tongue will confess that someday, including the unsaved.

Yes, he rebuked them for their works AND said He NEVER knew them. The important rebuke is the fact that He never knew them. The fact that they were doers of iniquity is simply an identification of who they were. Depart from me, you [identifier]. WHY? Because I never knew you.

Regardless, these people can't be saved people who fell into sin, otherwise He could not say He NEVER knew them.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
Another thing we have to remember is that Christ did say they were lying about their works, so they really were casting out demons and performing miracles.

Jesus did NOT say they weren't lying, either. But let's assume for the sake of argument that you're right. Now you're really put your argument int a precarious position.

Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

So is it NOT the will of the Father to prophesy, cast out demons, and perform miracles? If, as you claim, that is what these people did, and it was done by the power of God, then how could it NOT be the will of the Father? Yet Jesus is saying that ONLY those who do the will of the Father will enter. That would have to include these people, if what you assume is true. How could they be using the power of God -- against His will -- to cast out demons? And how is it that casting out demons suddenly became a "bad" thing?

Now - aside from the fact that the antichrist will perform counterfeit signs and miracles (which proves that such can be done without the power of God) - the issue here is whether or not these people were doing the will of the Father. As opposed to whose will? Their own. It isn't what they did that matters. That makes no sense. Casting out demons and performing miracles in the name of Jesus is not doing iniquity - in itself. It is iniquity if you are doing these things for your own glory and not because you are doing the Father's will.