What Love is this? By Dave Hunt

[Pastor Larry]

I have proved you wrong.

Where?

Your wrong and dishonest in saying you didn't see it.

The word is "you're," not "your," and how would you know that I am wrong and dishonest in saying I didn't see it? I honestly haven't seen any place you proved me wrong. Please demonstrate it.

The fact is you just hate loosing.

"Loosing"??? Surely you mean "losing," and yes I hate it, but that is irrelevant here. I haven't lost anything. So far, there are three unanswered issus by you. And there are charges you have made that you refuse to substantiate. Very telling.

oh no just what are you going to do now?

I will repeat the issues at hand, in hopes that your honesty and integrity will compel you to deal with it.

1. You said no one has ever given page numbers and examples of Hunt's misrepresentations and distortions. Yet, I had done that, and had posted an article that had documented it very well.

2. You said that I was making false claims against Hunt's book. Yet I have documented everything I have said about it, showing clearly that they are not false.

3. You said I attributed a quote of Spurgeon to Vance. Yet I clearly did not. The quote of Spurgeon came from his autobiography. The issue of Vance dealt with a quote of Calvin.

 

[JohnB]

GB93433,

I agree wholeheartedly with your points.

The reason I posted what I did is because I get frustrated with intellectual dishonesty on either side of the issue.

Calvinists constantly conplain that they are misrepresented by non-Calvinists. Yet they constantly misrepresent their opposition. (my favorite is that non-Calvinists claim credit for their own salvation.)

Calvinists, in blogs, books, articles and on the radio constantly decry the heresy of "arminianism" and how it's "man centered theology" is destroying the church. But as soon as an "arminian" like Dave Hunt or Jack Graham speaks of calvinism in the same negative way, the calvinists all squeal like stuck pigs and cry unfair!

If someone wants to understand Calvinism, I have no problem recommending Piper, Sproul and even Pink. Even though these authors, like Hunt, have flaws and often "misrepresent" the opposition.
In fact, if Hunt is so bad, Calvinists should heartily recommend him to bolster their case.

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by JohnB:
In fact, if Hunt is so bad, Calvinists should heartily recommend him to bolster their case.

That would be like recommending satan to bolster the case for Christ.

 

[JohnB]

Whetstone,

Perhaps you could give me a substantive answer to my question.

Could you recommend an accurate, fair and balanced examination of Calvinism written by a non-Calvinist?

 

[2BHizown]

"He only is a real Calvinist, and may raise the Calvinistic banner, who in his own soul, personally, has been struck by the Majesty of the Almighty, and yielding to the overpowering might of His eternal love, has dared to proclaim this majestic love, over against Satan and the world, and the worldliness of his own heart, in the personal conviction of being chosen by God Himself, and therefore of having to thank Him and Him alone, for every grace everlasting."
Abraham Kuyper

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by 2BHizown:
"He only is a real Calvinist, and may raise the Calvinistic banner, who in his own soul, personally, has been struck by the Majesty of the Almighty, and yielding to the overpowering might of His eternal love, has dared to proclaim this majestic love, over against Satan and the world, and the worldliness of his own heart, in the personal conviction of being chosen by God Himself, and therefore of having to thank Him and Him alone, for every grace everlasting."
Abraham Kuyper

Calvin has and never will be God. He has never given me salvation. That is idolatry. He was simply a servant of God.

1 Cor. 1:11-13, "For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?"

Non-believers can read Calvin and agree just like the demons believe and shudder. But nobody can be a follower of Jesus and not be a Christian.

 

[2BHizown]

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord,Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophysied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in YOur name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
Why? Because they were not chosen!

 

[Ray Berrian]

2BHizown,

Hey, my friend, that was a 'flip answer' and, of course no Scipture to back the serious allegation against humankind.

You do care about all sinners, don't you?

 

[Ray Berrian]

gb93433,

Sometimes you do get the idea as you said in your own words, that "Calvinism" and God are the same except God is Spirit and Calvinists have human bodies, minus the ability to understand the God they are trying to comprehend as to salvific concerns.

How unlike the true God who allegedly damns human beings for some mysterious reason that they cannot get 'a handle' on as to how this pleases Him. And let's say if it is for His glory and pleasure, He sure has a strange sense of propriety. And why do I say this? Because Mark 12:14 indicates that the Lord God '. . . does not regard the persons of men . . . .' meaning human beings or human sinners. This means that He does not select some for Heaven and some for Hell. He is God of Justice and God of Love which reaches to all sinners in His created world. It is our responsibility to witness, preach and teach so all can hear for the first time.

When sinners hear the way to salvation He convicts all and it is their responsibility to confess their need of Jesus [Romans 5:1]. Faith is the conduit through which God's grace 'flows or is given as the free gift' [Ephesians 2:8-9].

 

[2BHizown]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
2BHizown,

Hey, my friend, that was a 'flip answer' and, of course no Scipture to back the serious allegation against humankind.

You do care about all sinners, don't you?

Thanks friend, no "flip answer" intended there but was that great quote from Matthew 7 ; 21-23! Forgive the omission of the address! Actually, what the Word says, straight and true is what most interests me! Blessings!

 

[2BHizown]

Originally posted by gb93433:

Non-believers can read Calvin and agree just like the demons believe and shudder. But nobody can be a follower of Jesus and not be a Christian. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Non-believers need to read the Word of God and plead for His mercy! After becoming familiar with HIs Word they will then realize that what they believe from God's Word is identical with what John Calvin believed! Great comforting mystery! Blessings!

 

[Ray Berrian]

If I believed the Devil's lie I would be very much discomforted thinking that Jesus wilfully sends the majority to Hell. Not knowing the Scriptural meaning can never be called a 'mystery.'

May God's blessings and enlightenment fall on you and your reception of His light and truth.

Ray

 

[HanSola2000]

Jesus Christ tasted death for every man, as the Scripture says, for He loved them all. Anyone who says otherwise speaks with the tongue of the deceiver.

Post edited for inflammatory language. Please cease.

[ October 25, 2005, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Mike,

We are still waiting for you to address these statements you made. Why are you running?

 

[paidagogos]

II Timothy 2
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a cankerb: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by 2BHizown:
Non-believers need to read the Word of God and plead for His mercy! After becoming familiar with HIs Word they will then realize that what they believe from God's Word is identical with what John Calvin believed! Great comforting mystery! Blessings!

Have you read Calvin's Institutes?

 

[2BHizown]

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 2BHizown:
Non-believers need to read the Word of God and plead for His mercy! After becoming familiar with HIs Word they will then realize that what they believe from God's Word is identical with what John Calvin believed! Great comforting mystery! Blessings!

Have you read Calvin's Institutes? </font>[/QUOTE]I cant say that I"ve read all of that, no. I did a study on the Five Points of Calvinism. YOU see I dont have to know all that Calvin knew. The important thing is that I know what Christ wants me to know in scripture. He is the one I most want to please, not Calvin! However, I do see that the Five Points of Calvinism are fully substantiated by scripture and scripture satisfies me totally. I'm sure that Calvin has his errors just like any other man but when he pointed me to the doctrines of grace he was right on target! Are you most interested in my soul or in finding the real Truth for yourself?
Blessings, prayers that we will all find Truth!!

 

[HanSola2000]

Post removed for being off topic and inflammatory. Please cease this tactic of participation.

[ October 26, 2005, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by 2BHizown:
I cant say that I"ve read all of that, no. I did a study on the Five Points of Calvinism. YOU see I dont have to know all that Calvin knew. The important thing is that I know what Christ wants me to know in scripture. He is the one I most want to please, not Calvin! However, I do see that the Five Points of Calvinism are fully substantiated by scripture and scripture satisfies me totally. I'm sure that Calvin has his errors just like any other man but when he pointed me to the doctrines of grace he was right on target!

Thought I'd ask because I have, and what I read is not what a lot of "Calvinists" claim for Calvin. The majority of so called Calvinists have never read Calvin's Institutes. Isn't it rather hard to claim to be a Calvinist when you really have not ready his main writings?

Are you sure Calvin came up with the five points of Calvinism?

It wasn't too long ago that the majority on the BB who responded claimed they have never read his Institutes.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by gb93433:
Are you sure Calvin came up with the five points of Calvinism?

&lt;sigh&gt;

No, Calvin did not come up with the five points of Calvinism. The five points were first proposed several years after Calvin's death, in response to the five points of remonstrance presented by the followers of Arminius, who, by the way, was also dead at the time.

And no, Calvinism does not mean that one believes whatever Calvin taught.

&lt;sigh&gt;