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What matters is keeping the Commandments of God
- Thread starter BobRyan
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You sure do like to make the claim i imply a lot of things. No doubt about it, i do fall and i do transgress Gods law as does everyone
1JOHN1 [10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
On the other hand there are "many" who claim the 10 commandments are obsolete and no longer to be followed. Nailed to the cross they say. They claim they are not under the 10 commandments which means they believe they cannot sin.
1 JOHN 3 [4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.
I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,
When the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Assuming all of the above is speaking of the same time frame. Does the tabernacle of David have anything to do with the throne of David and if so is that not also the kingdom of God. At this time the called of God, called for a purpose will have been resurrected/changed and I assume would make up the ruling body with Christ.
Now are the rest, the residue of men inclusive of the balance of the twelve tribes but not of those from the following verse, (Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace,) flesh born human beings to be governed and educated by Christ and those upon whom his name is called?
So much for separation of church and state. By what laws do you think they will be governed?
Why did Jesus say that, this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come?
For a witness.
When the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Assuming all of the above is speaking of the same time frame. Does the tabernacle of David have anything to do with the throne of David and if so is that not also the kingdom of God. At this time the called of God, called for a purpose will have been resurrected/changed and I assume would make up the ruling body with Christ.
Now are the rest, the residue of men inclusive of the balance of the twelve tribes but not of those from the following verse, (Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace,) flesh born human beings to be governed and educated by Christ and those upon whom his name is called?
So much for separation of church and state. By what laws do you think they will be governed?
Why did Jesus say that, this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come?
For a witness.
I might have found the scripture you speak of.
1JOHN1 [7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Thing is 1John1{7} must be talking your past sins. The reason i say this is because of verse 9. Its kinda hard to confess sins you havent yet committed
commandments nailed to the cross
All sin past present and future
once saved always saved
the rapture - no tribulation for us
so on and so forth-yet none stand up to scripture
ISAIAH 30 [9] That THIS IS A REBELLIOUS PEOPLE, LYING CHILDREN, CHILDREN THAT WILL NOT HEAR THE LAW OF THE LORD: [10] Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, PROPHESY NOT UNTO US RIGHT THINGS, SPEAK UNTO US SMOOTH THINGS, PROPHESY DECEITS:
Has this prophecy come to pass or what!
All sin past present and future
once saved always saved
the rapture - no tribulation for us
so on and so forth-yet none stand up to scripture
ISAIAH 30 [9] That THIS IS A REBELLIOUS PEOPLE, LYING CHILDREN, CHILDREN THAT WILL NOT HEAR THE LAW OF THE LORD: [10] Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, PROPHESY NOT UNTO US RIGHT THINGS, SPEAK UNTO US SMOOTH THINGS, PROPHESY DECEITS:
Has this prophecy come to pass or what!
GE:
1John1:7-9 will do.
There's NO 'must-be' about 'past sins'. Especially NOT if "verse 9 ... is the reason i say this".
Our school head-master often prayed for the school before the schoolday to the Lord to forgive us our "sins that we are going to do today". You have no idea how much that meant to me who was taught in the church I belonged to that such a prayer is an abomination.
I need my breakfast and vitamin pill before my working day.
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Has it?
Please explain.
"None of it stands up to Scripture." That is your opinion. Are you sure it is a Biblical opinion?
Hi DHK
I know the scriptures do not nail the 10 commandments to the cross. I know through the scriptures there is no rapture off to heaven. Once saved always saved? What about the falling away. As for sins future forgivin, i just asked for scripture to prove this so and no one came up with any. There might be scripture that says this but i cant find one
I know the scriptures do not nail the 10 commandments to the cross. I know through the scriptures there is no rapture off to heaven. Once saved always saved? What about the falling away. As for sins future forgivin, i just asked for scripture to prove this so and no one came up with any. There might be scripture that says this but i cant find one
Dr. Walter
New Member
You have been nailed so many times and so thoroughly and without any ability to respond, it is amazing that you can even look at yourself in the mirror without shame. yet you come back with the same old statements that have been thoroughly dismantled time after time.
1. Rom. 3:9-20 denies that "ANY FLESH" can be justified by the works of the law.
2. Romans 3:24-5:2 denies that justification by faith includes the works of the law.
3. John 7:19 denies that any Jew could keep the Law
4. James 2:10 sets forth the qualifications necessary to keep the Law which you nor "any flesh" have the ability to do.
In order to defend your position, you have to pit scripture against scripture. You have to lower the definition as to what is keeping the law set in James 2:10. In order to avoid the condemnation of Colossians 2:14-16 you have to dismantle the law of Moses and pick and choose parts of the Mosaic Law.
GE:
"ALL our sins"; "ALL our unrighteousness".
"Justified we have PEACE with God" Ro5:1
"I LEAVE with you, My PEACE ... that in Me ye might have PEACE" John 14:27 16:33.
If tomorrow or next month I may die ... my peace with God in Christ is PERFECT because ALL my sins when I was "JUSTIFIED" were forgiven even though I shall do my last sin just before I die. I say SHALL do; not, MAY do.
The Sabbath is dealt with in detail in Exodus 31. The Bible clearly delineates that is a sign of the covenant made between Jehovah and Israel and their generations forever and ever. It is to them, and them alone. There is no command anywhere for the Gentile to keep the Sabbath.
Having clarified that, the rest of the Ten Commandments is popularly known as God's moral law. It is that law that is applicable to the saved and unsaved alike. God has written it upon the hearts of all men:
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. (Romans 2:14-15)
When they break God's moral law they know it. Their God-given conscience even tells them that they broke it and they have a sense of guilt about it. It is that way all over the world no matter which part of the world you visit.
Thus the Ten Commandments were not the "law" that was being spoken of when the Bible refers to the law being nailed to the cross, was it?
The Bible does teach it. You just disagree with its teaching.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) [ASV]
--This passage is not speaking of Christ's Second Coming, His Advent when He comes with the glory of His Father and the holy angels to take vengeance on those that know not him. That is how the Second Coming is described.
--This is the rapture where he comes specifically for the saints and the saints alone. There is no vengeance or justice meted out against unbelievers here. There is simply a rapture, a resurrection of believers, and that is all. Christ doesn't even come and touch the earth; he comes only as far as the clouds. We shall meet him "in the air." Far different than all the passages that speak of the Second Coming.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1)
--No condemnation means no condemnation. Is that a difficult concept to grasp. I will never again be condemned for my sins. They are all under the blood--past, present and future. There is no condemnation. There are many other supporting scriptures here such as John 5:24, but this should be good enough.
Your teaching would end up to be that a man must be born again and again and again and again. The Bible does not teach that. It teaches that a man is born only once into the family of God. He cannot lose his salvation. He cannot be born many times.
What about it? Explain yourself. Give scripture as to what you mean. What "falling away?"
And I just gave you Scripture.
Seek and you shall find.
Are you willing to seek the Scriptures?
Dr. Walter
New Member
May that be true of you as well
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I have been out of town for the holidays - but am back now - so will be trying to catch up a bit on the posts here.
And you are correct. In Col 2:14 Paul says that our "certificate of debt" was nailed to the cross instead of saying that the Law of God is nailed to the Cross.
Hence Paul's strong affirmation in 1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".
And Paul's strong affirmation in Rom 3 about the fact that the faith of the saints ESTABLISHES the Law of God rather then abolishing it.
That is the whole point of the concept of substitutionary atoning sacrifice. The Law of God is UPHELD in that the penalty it demands is fully met in Christ.
in Christ,
Bob
And you are correct. In Col 2:14 Paul says that our "certificate of debt" was nailed to the cross instead of saying that the Law of God is nailed to the Cross.
Hence Paul's strong affirmation in 1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".
And Paul's strong affirmation in Rom 3 about the fact that the faith of the saints ESTABLISHES the Law of God rather then abolishing it.
That is the whole point of the concept of substitutionary atoning sacrifice. The Law of God is UPHELD in that the penalty it demands is fully met in Christ.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I agree with this if the "Gift of the Holy Spirit" is meant to reference the pentecostal outpouring that is seen in Acts 2 or Acts 10.
But the Holy Spirit work of convicting the sinner comes before salvation and before the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in 1Cor 12. And usually that is also true of the New Birth coming before the gifts of the Spirit - (though Acts 10-11 is a case of an exception).
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
BobRyan said
In Rom 2:7 the word is "Perseverance" - your argument is with the text.
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
You are using an either-or fallacy when a both-and message is found in the text because as we see in Matt 7 and in Romans 2 and in Rev 14:12 regarding the "perseverance of the saints" - it is a case of future judgment where the saints are observed to in fact "persevere".
Turns out that even our 3 and 5 point Calvinist friends "get the point" about the Bible teaching on the "perseverance of the saints".
I am always glad to acknowledge that point of agreement between Bible-based arminians and certain groups of Calvinists.
In Rom 2:13 the word is "justified" - your argument is with the text.
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Rom 5:1 speaks to the past-tense fact of a lost person that HAS been justified and has peace with God.
The Rom 2:13 text speaks of the FUTURE case of the Dan 7:22 judgment that WILL be "passed in favor of the saints" - a judgment where it will be seen that good trees do produce good fruit.
As we both agree - Looking at a tree - does not CHANGE the tree.
When it comes to the issue of "circling back" to how a lost person is saved, justified and accepted by God it is clear that "Romans 3:19-5:2 is explict that "NO FLESH" can be justified under the Law".
And of course as we saw in Romans 7 and in Romans 4 the Law of God defines sin and it is that same law that in Rom 3 and Gal 3 holds all of mankind "still to this very day" as being sinners and in need of salvation.
Your efforts to avoid the context of Romans 5 vs Romans 2 have not gone unnoticed. You cannot shoehorn the future judgment of Rom 2:13-16 "justified... on the day when according to my Gospel God WILL JUDGE" with the PAST tenst justification of the lost sinner who repents and is then born-again and justified "having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God".
Thus James is correct in James 2 when speaking of the FUTURE judgment and justification "you see then that a man is justified by WORKS and NOT by faith alone".
As we both know - the text of scripture is very clear on this point. I am not sure how you are planning to get around the clear teaching that we find in the Bible on this subject.
in Christ,
Bob
In Rom 2:7 the word is "Perseverance" - your argument is with the text.
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
You are using an either-or fallacy when a both-and message is found in the text because as we see in Matt 7 and in Romans 2 and in Rev 14:12 regarding the "perseverance of the saints" - it is a case of future judgment where the saints are observed to in fact "persevere".
Turns out that even our 3 and 5 point Calvinist friends "get the point" about the Bible teaching on the "perseverance of the saints".
I am always glad to acknowledge that point of agreement between Bible-based arminians and certain groups of Calvinists.
In Rom 2:13 the word is "justified" - your argument is with the text.
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Rom 5:1 speaks to the past-tense fact of a lost person that HAS been justified and has peace with God.
The Rom 2:13 text speaks of the FUTURE case of the Dan 7:22 judgment that WILL be "passed in favor of the saints" - a judgment where it will be seen that good trees do produce good fruit.
As we both agree - Looking at a tree - does not CHANGE the tree.
When it comes to the issue of "circling back" to how a lost person is saved, justified and accepted by God it is clear that "Romans 3:19-5:2 is explict that "NO FLESH" can be justified under the Law".
And of course as we saw in Romans 7 and in Romans 4 the Law of God defines sin and it is that same law that in Rom 3 and Gal 3 holds all of mankind "still to this very day" as being sinners and in need of salvation.
Your efforts to avoid the context of Romans 5 vs Romans 2 have not gone unnoticed. You cannot shoehorn the future judgment of Rom 2:13-16 "justified... on the day when according to my Gospel God WILL JUDGE" with the PAST tenst justification of the lost sinner who repents and is then born-again and justified "having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God".
Thus James is correct in James 2 when speaking of the FUTURE judgment and justification "you see then that a man is justified by WORKS and NOT by faith alone".
As we both know - the text of scripture is very clear on this point. I am not sure how you are planning to get around the clear teaching that we find in the Bible on this subject.
in Christ,
Bob
Dr. Walter
New Member
My argument is not with the text. The text identifies the qualifications for obtaining eternal life "according to his works" (v. 6). I do not disagree with the qualifications stated or the consequence stated. I simply disagree any human being can be justified before God "according to his works." I simply disagree that ANY FLESH "according to works" can persevere in doing good works for justification (Rom. 3:19-20; Gal. 3:10-12)
I am not arguing with the use of the word "justified" in this context. I am arguing with your replacement of it by the word "salvation." The verse you quote is explicitly talking about justification UNDER THE LAW or doing the works of the law. It is not talking about justification by faith in the gospel.
You are attempting to change the context of from DOING the works of the law in order to be justified to "salvation.' There is no salvation by justication through the works of the law for ANY FLESH.
No we do not agree. The past tense justification in Romans 5:1 is the summary of the doctrine of justification in Romans 4:1-25 and it is WITHOUT THE WORKS OF THE LAW whereas Romans 2:7 and 13 is BY DOING THE WORKS OF THE LAW. Hence, Biblical justification is WITHOUT DOING THE WORKS OF THE LAW whereas those in Romans 2 are coming to God on the basis of DOING THE WORKS OF THE LAW in order to be justified.
Romans 2:13 teaches that justification under Law is according to our works and only those who persevere in DOING the works of the law (vv. 6-7) will be justified under the Law. This is true but what is equally true is that there is NO FLESH capable of doing it either before or after conversion to the gospel IF you define perseverance in doing the law as defined by James 2:10 and Galations 3:10! If these two verses define what the Law requires by DOING the works of the law then "NO FLESH" lost or saved can "DO" the works of the law except for Jesus Christ.
There is no justification by faith, no salvation by grace, no mention of imputation of Christ's righteousness in Romans 2:6-3:20. Romans 2:1-29 is strictly justificaiton UNDER LAW "according to his works." Romans 2:13 makes this very clear that it is DOING not believing that justifies a man UNDER LAW! Romans 2:7 makes it very clear that "according to...works" (v. 6) to be justified under law (v. 13) a man must "persevere" in continual doing of the law in order to be justified. That is true! But equally true is that NO FLESH is capable of being justified UNDER LAW any time or any place.
Y
This is absurd! Find the word "faith" or "saved" or "redeemed" or "imputed" or "justified by grace" or "justified by faith" in Romans 2??? The only thing you can find is "justified" by DOING UNDER LAW (v. 13). The only reason the gospel is brought into Romans 2:16 is for JUDGEMENT as the gospel reveals the righteousness of God (Rom. 1:17) that God will use to judge all who attempt to be justified by DOING THE LAW "according to his works."
James is talking about justification in the eyes of men not in the eyes of God - "show me...show you..." Abraham showed his faith to his son Isaac and his servants. Rahab showed her faith to the spies and to all Israel. Don't confuse justification by faith before God with its EVIDENCE in the court of human observation and judgement.
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Dr. Walter
New Member
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
DOERS OF THE LAW is the subject of this context. DOERS OF THE LAW must be not merely hearers only but must "by patient continuance in well DOING" obtain justification under the Law "according to his works."
I believe that this is the requirment to be justified under the Law. I believe that every man "according to his works" who is able "by patient continuance in well DOING" as prescribed UNDER LAW will obtain honour, immortality and eternal life. Jesus believed this, Paul believed this and I believe this.
It is true that UNDER LAW the only persons that will be justified by the Law for honor, immortality and eternal life is the person persevering in continuance in well doing "according to his works"!!!!! This is all true. If it were not true, Paul would never have to assert that "NO FLESH" is capable of being justified under law according to their works. James would never have to define that persevering in continuance of well doing is obedience without fault in even one point (James 2:10). Paul would not have to define failure in DOING the works of the law as "continueth not in ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN...to DO them"
Bob is teaching that Christians begin by faith alone but continue by faith plus works of the law in order to get a passing grade at the future judgment based upon PERSEVERANCE IN WELL DOING ACCORDING TO THE WORKS OF THE LAW. That is the accursed gospel.
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
This verse must be interpreted by the contrast of the "hearing" of faith versus the "DOING" by the flesh in good works.
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
The "works of the law" prescribe GOOD deeds not evil deeds to be justified by the law. So it is "DOING" versus "HEARING" and Bob is trying to combine them together for the saint to be justified while separating them in regard to the lost man - when neither lost or saved can DO what the law requires and defines as DOING the works of the Law - consistency what a jewel.
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
DOERS OF THE LAW is the subject of this context. DOERS OF THE LAW must be not merely hearers only but must "by patient continuance in well DOING" obtain justification under the Law "according to his works."
I believe that this is the requirment to be justified under the Law. I believe that every man "according to his works" who is able "by patient continuance in well DOING" as prescribed UNDER LAW will obtain honour, immortality and eternal life. Jesus believed this, Paul believed this and I believe this.
It is true that UNDER LAW the only persons that will be justified by the Law for honor, immortality and eternal life is the person persevering in continuance in well doing "according to his works"!!!!! This is all true. If it were not true, Paul would never have to assert that "NO FLESH" is capable of being justified under law according to their works. James would never have to define that persevering in continuance of well doing is obedience without fault in even one point (James 2:10). Paul would not have to define failure in DOING the works of the law as "continueth not in ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN...to DO them"
Bob is teaching that Christians begin by faith alone but continue by faith plus works of the law in order to get a passing grade at the future judgment based upon PERSEVERANCE IN WELL DOING ACCORDING TO THE WORKS OF THE LAW. That is the accursed gospel.
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
This verse must be interpreted by the contrast of the "hearing" of faith versus the "DOING" by the flesh in good works.
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
The "works of the law" prescribe GOOD deeds not evil deeds to be justified by the law. So it is "DOING" versus "HEARING" and Bob is trying to combine them together for the saint to be justified while separating them in regard to the lost man - when neither lost or saved can DO what the law requires and defines as DOING the works of the Law - consistency what a jewel.
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scriptmemory
Member
Speaking of deception,
Let us not speak as if God cannot wash us, sanctify us, and justify us in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God to be prepared for the judgment of our works. Come on brethren—is this simple Bible subject an argument? It is not our power that discharges our duty to God but the Holy Spirit which writes His law in our hearts and Christ.
Let us not speak as if God cannot wash us, sanctify us, and justify us in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God to be prepared for the judgment of our works. Come on brethren—is this simple Bible subject an argument? It is not our power that discharges our duty to God but the Holy Spirit which writes His law in our hearts and Christ.
Dr. Walter
New Member
You confuse the lost man with the saved man. You are completely ignorant of the different aspects of salvation as you confuse justification without works with santification by works. You simply jerk texts out of their context and use them as though your think you are inspired by God.
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