What must one do to be saved???

[SolaScriptura]

"THERE IS ONE IMMERSION" (Eph 4:5) and it is the one ADMINISTERED BY HUMAN HANDS

Jesus told the apostles to administer in Matthew 28:19 "teach all nations IMMERSING THEM." Jesus taught in that same place that THIS immersion adminstered by human hands would be THE ONE that lasts to the end of the world, for after saying IMMERSING THEM he says "I am with you alway, unto the end of the world" thus connecting them.

Read my above post COMPLETELY please.

[ June 04, 2002, 03:11 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
"THERE IS ONE IMMERSION" (Eph 4:5) and it is the one ADMINISTERED BY HUMAN HANDS

Jesus told the apostles to administer in Matthew 28:19 "teach all nations IMMERSING THEM." Jesus taught in that same place that THIS immersion adminstered by human hands would be THE ONE that lasts to the end of the world, for after saying IMMERSING THEM he says "I am with you alway, unto the end of the world" thus connecting them.

Mt 28:19 (ASV)
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

Mt 28:19 (WEB)
Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the
Holy Spirit,

Mt 28:19 (Darby)
Go [therefore] and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;

The word "teach" is translated "disciple" in most translations. The verse implies that you take the gospel into every nation, preach it, allow them to respond and by faith alone trust Christ and be saved. After some discipling, they are baptized. After they are baptized you teach them again ("teaching them all things, whatsoever I have commanded you"). Baptism always follows salvation, no matter where you look.
DHK

 

[hph]

O.K. SO WERE CONFUSED ON BAPTISM OR SHOULD I SAY YOU ARE CONFUSED AND IF I SAID IT WOULD ANYONE UNDERSTAND ANYWAY!
BACK TO MY QUESTION "WHERE DOES IT SAY HE WHO IS NOT BAPTIZED IS DAMNED?" I HAVENT SEEN ANY SCRIPTURE YET WHICH IS ODD FROM A USER NAME LIKE SOLA-SCRIPTURE.
FRIENDS , HOW MANY DIFFERENT FIGURATIVE AND LITERAL MEANINGS AND USES DOES THE TERM BAPTIZE HAVE ? I THINK YOU WILL FIND IT HAS MORE USES THAN GETTING WET.I SAW A BUDDIST BAPTIZED IN FIRE ONCE, I'VE SEEN FRIENDS BAPTIZED INTO CLUBS, IVE HEARD OF PEOPLE BAPTIZED INTO THE FIRE AND POLICE DEPT. PEOPLE ARE BAPTIZED INTO MARRIAGE , DIVORCE ,ECT.
I WANT SCRIPTURE ON YOUR OBJECTIONS, AND THIS TIME USE SOME CONTEXT PLEASE , LIKE "he that BELIEVETH and is baptized shall be saved;BUT HE THAT--BELIEVETH==NOT SHALL BE DAMNED"
I THINK YOU GET THE POINT.WE NEED TO GO TO SCRIPTURE FOR OUR POINTS.SO WHEN YOU COME OUT OF THE CORNERS USE THE SWORD OF THE LORD K?

 

[Chemnitz]

DHK, I sure hope you kept your day job because as a translator, you leave a lot to be desired.

Translating βαπτιζω as immersion is just plain wrong. βαπτιζω: 1. to wash ceremonially for purpose of purification, wash, purify 2. to use water in a rite for purpose of renewing or establishing a relationship with God, plunge, dip, wash, baptize. (BDAG 164)

 

[hph]

BAPTIZE can also mean "any ceremony or action of initiation,dedication, ect."Webesters
BAPTIZO,bap-tid'-zo ; to make overwhelmed(i.e. fully wet)Strongs (this is part of the def.)
also, to Immerse,semerge...SpirosZodhiates Th.D."The COMPLETE WORD STUDY DICTIONARY , NEW TESTAMENT"
also , to dip repeatedly,to immerge,submerge. JosephH.Thayer"THAYERS GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT"
NOTE***THIS IS NOT THE ONLY DEF.BUT IT IS ONE OF A BIG DEF.BAPTISM CAN ALSO MEAN AN ASSOCIATION (IN THE PUBLIC EYE)WITH A PERSON OR GROUP.
NOW can someone hepl us get over this hurdle by showing me the scripture that states"he who is not baptised shall be damned" if it means so much surley this text must appear many times???

 

[Chemnitz]

NOW can someone hepl us get over this hurdle by showing me the scripture that states"he who is not baptised shall be damned" if it means so much surley this text must appear many times???

Before you pop a vein, the Bible doesn't say that ""he who is not baptised shall be damned"". But if somebody rejects baptism then they will surely be damned for their unbelief. To reject baptism is to reject the Gospel.

 

[hph]

O.K. now I see your opnion on the subject but wheres the scripture that you admit dosn't exist? you give me scriptures that state "anyone who is not baptised shall be damned" and I'll listen but without scripture you have nothing .Could you list all the scriptures that state a faliure to believe lead to damnation? thats probally alot easier.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Hey Mr. Curtis --

I'm not Roman Catholic, so I haven't spent a lot of time worrying about dem problems. Try to remember that next time you want to launch one of yer little insult-o-grams, eh bucko?

Kinda interesting how the Orthodox haven't had such problems, isn't it?

Brother Ed

 

[Bro. Curtis]

And how about a little respect from you, as well. You can start by not using the term "prots".

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
DHK, I sure hope you kept your day job because as a translator, you leave a lot to be desired.

Translating βαπτιζω as immersion is just plain wrong. βαπτιζω: 1. to wash ceremonially for purpose of purification, wash, purify 2. to use water in a rite for purpose of renewing or establishing a relationship with God, plunge, dip, wash, baptize. (BDAG 164)

Baptize: from Strong's Concordance
907 baptizo bap-tid'-zo
from a derivative of 911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:--Baptist, baptize, wash.

---Almost any lexicon will give immerse as the primary meaning of the word "baptidzo."
You are just plain wrong on this subject; perhaps your looking in the wrong places.
DHK

 

[Chemnitz]

Baptize: from Strong's Concordance
907 baptizo bap-tid'-zo
from a derivative of 911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:--Baptist, baptize, wash.

---Almost any lexicon will give immerse as the primary meaning of the word "baptidzo."
You are just plain wrong on this subject; perhaps your looking in the wrong places.

Actually I am using one of the foremost recognized lexicons Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature by Arndt, Gingrich, Bauer, Danker commonly refered to as BDAG, the only better lexicon is the Oxford Greek English Lexicon(aka Liddle) which is a bit more expensive than I can afford. While Strong's is ok, it is quite laughable when you try to use it to justify a translation.

[ June 06, 2002, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]

 

[Chemnitz]

I decided to go by the library and see what Thayer's Lexicon had to say about βαπτισω and Thayer's agrees with me. Basically Thayer's says that βαπτισω means to wash, to wash ceremonially and then lists several means of performing the washing of which immersion is one of them. However at no time does it say that βαπτισω means immersion. Starting look like you are out gunned DHK, because the lexical evidence is pilling up against.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
I decided to go by the library and see what Thayer's Lexicon had to say about βαπτισω and Thayer's agrees with me. Basically Thayer's says that βαπτισω means to wash, to wash ceremonially and then lists several means of performing the washing of which immersion is one of them. However at no time does it say that βαπτισω means immersion. Starting look like you are out gunned DHK, because the lexical evidence is pilling up against.

I don't have to go to the library to look up the word baptidzo. I have my own copy of Thayers, as well as Liddell and Scott, and Green's. I use Strong's because it is easy reference, and on my hard drive. But for your sake I will get out the old tomes.
From Thayers, "A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Joseph Henry Thayer, D.D., Fourth Edition, 1901
Baptidzo:
I. 1. Properly to dip repeatedly, to immerge, submerge.
2. To cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water; in the mid. And the 1 aor. Pass. To wash one's self, bathe;
3. Metaphorically: to overwhelm.

II. In the N.T. it is used particularly of the rite of sacred ablution, first instituted by John the Baptist, afterwards by Christ's command received by Christians and adjusted to the contents and nature of their religion, viz. An immersion in water, performed as a sign of the removal of sin, and administered to those who impelled by a desire for salvation, sought admission to the benefits of the Messiah's kingdom.
A. The word is used absolutely, to administer the rite of ablution, to baptize: Mk.1:4; Jn.1:25, etc.; with the cognate noun "to baptisma," Acts 19:4; "o baptidwn," substantively i.q. "o baptistays," Mk.6:14. Passive in a reflex sense, to allow one's self to be initiated by baptism, to receive baptism Lk.3:7,12. With the cognate noun "to baptisma" added, Lk.7:29, 1Aor. Mid. 1Cor.10:2
B. with prepositions; eis, to mark the element into which the immersion is made.

Baptisma: a word peculiar to N.T. and ecccl writ., immersion, submersion.

I would say that your scholarship has been poor and dishonest at best.
DHK

 

[Chemnitz]

You accuse me of dishonest scholarship, yet I am not the one grabbing one word and insisting that that baptism means that one word particularly in light of overwhelming evidence. Which any idiot could tell you is not the way you do a translation.
BTW I had to go to the library to look up thayer's because I don't happen to own it and my finances are not in such a shape for me to justify owning another lexicon when I already have two perfectly good greek lexicons(BDAG and Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament by Friberg,Friberg, and Miller)plus Strong's. And before you accuse somebody of academic dishonesty you had better set up some proof, which you do not have.

βαπτιζω (BDAG pg 164,165) 1. wash ceremonially for purpose of purification, wash ,purify, of a broad range of repeated ritual washing rooted in Israelite tradition.
2. to use water in a rite for purpose of renewing or establishing a relationship with God, plunge, dip, wash, baptize The transliteration 'baptize' signifies the ceremonial character that the NT narratives accord such cleansing, but the need of qualifying statements or contextual coloring in the documents indicates that the term βαπτιζω was not nearly so technical as the transliteration suggests.
3. to cause someone to have an extraordinary experience akin to an initiatory water-rite, to plunge, baptize

(Friberg p87) dip, immerse in water; middle dip oneself, wash; in the NT predominately of the use of water in a religious and symbolic sense; (1) of Jewish ritual washings wash, cleanse, purify by washing (2)as a symbolic rite indicating an aspect of relation to Christ

(Liddell p305) dip, plunge,to flood

(Thayer p94) 1. to dip repeatedly, to immerge, submerge
2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water
3. to overwhelm
(Lampe) 1. submerge, sink, plunge
2. wash, baptize

In light of such lexical evidence to insist that βαπτιζω translates as immersion is just dishonest and does not do justice to the full meaning of the word. All I see here is somebody trying to justify their immersion only doctrine by using bad translating techniques.

[ June 06, 2002, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
However at no time does it say that βαπτισω means immersion.

In the light of what I have posted and you have further posted yourself, do you think that you can still HONESTLY hold to this statement?
DHK

 

[Chemnitz]

In the sense that you are trying to use it as, yes, I still hold to my statement. You are ignoring to much of the context and use of the word βαπτισω by trying to limit the meaning to immersion. Which I dare say is a feeble attempt by you to justify your immersion only stance. The lexicons even relate immersing to the act of washing in much of the extra context provided that I did not post here in the interest of brevity, also because that point was made by the BDAG citation.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
However at no time does it say that βαπτισω means immersion.

This statement is a lie.

Baptisma: a word peculiar to N.T. and ecccl writ., immersion, submersion. (Thayer)

1. Properly to dip repeatedly, to immerge, submerge. 2. To cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water; in the mid. And the 1 aor. Pass. To wash one's self, bathe; 3. Metaphorically: to overwhelm. (Thayer)

What you have said is a lie. Here is what you said: "However at no time does it say that ßaptiso means immersion." Four times does Thayer use the word immersion. Three other times in the text of his description, and once here. The primary meaning, given first, is "to dip, immerge, submerge, all of which mean the same as immersion. I am not opposed to synonyms. What you want to do is akin to taking the word Baptidzo and saying that it should be translated "overwhelm," the third meaning that Thayer gives. That may not be the meaning you want to attach to it, but the same reasoning is there. You want to attach a secondary or lesser meaning to the word "Baptdzo" than what was in common usage at that time. That is foolishness. Baptidzo, in its primary meaning, means immersion. Why hunt down other meanings and force them into contexts just to fit your own theology?
DHK

 

[Chemnitz]

Ok, fine you may live with your delusion. I guess you didn't even bother to read my response where I clarified my position. Somehow I am not surprised, because the only way you have an argument is by jumping on an unclarified remark. I will stand by my statement because at no time when used in reference to immersion does it mean straight up immersion, it means washed by means of immersion. I don't have to hunt for it the linguistical evidence is there, you just choose to ignore it.

 

[DHK]

Posted by Catholic Convert,
in the "All Other Discussions" forum under the "Since I'm Sure Some Are Wondering..." thread:

"I would agree with one premies from the Didache, which is that we are told in it that IMMERSION is the method which they were teaching. I am a believer in deep water immersion as the best way of baptizing because it shows the reality of our being buried and raised to new life in Christ. The ordinance of circumcision showed something distinct regarding the coming of the Messiah (blood to be shed, flesh to be cut off). Likewise, baptism should show reality of what Christ has done and our partcipation in it."

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
Posted by Catholic Convert,
in the "All Other Discussions" forum under the "Since I'm Sure Some Are Wondering..." thread:

"I would agree with one premies from the Didache, which is that we are told in it that IMMERSION is the method which they were teaching. I am a believer in deep water immersion as the best way of baptizing because it shows the reality of our being buried and raised to new life in Christ. The ordinance of circumcision showed something distinct regarding the coming of the Messiah (blood to be shed, flesh to be cut off). Likewise, baptism should show reality of what Christ has done and our partcipation in it."

Actually the Didache says immersion is one method. It does not say it is the "only" method.

From the Didache:

"... then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Ron