What must one do to be saved???

[SolaScriptura]

Many say "baptism means wash" and many others "baptism means immersion." Let me clear this up with some questions: When you wash something without immersing it, can you wash the whole thing? If you wash something without immersing it, aren't you only washing part of it?

 

[Chemnitz]

Yes, a shower is just as effective as a bath.

 

[Jerry Moon]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
Yes, a shower is just as effective as a bath.

Baptism is the burial of the Old Sinful Man in a watery grave. Would sprinkling a little dirt on a dead man be as effective as putting them 6 feet under?

 

[Chemnitz]

Since burial was done by placing people in caves I really don't think your imagery works here.

 

[tyndale1946]

Jerry Moon said

Would sprinkling a little dirt on a dead man be as effective as putting them 6 feet under?

I about fell on the floor after reading that one!...

If the person is not regenerated/quickened before he is baptized... immersed... put entirely under the water... buried in that water... Then he went in a dry devil and came out a wet one!... Baptismal water has no eternal saving properties!... Jesus Christ is our only Salvation not the water or the baptismal ordainance that follows... Baptism is an act of obedience in following the Lord and nothing else... Brother Glen

[ June 10, 2002, 03:20 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

[Sir Ed]

Baptism is an act of obedience in following the Lord and nothing else

I can put out unsubstantiated generalizations just as well as Glenn.

Try this: The above statement is an extra-Biblical, man-made, heretical doctrine.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
Since burial was done by placing people in caves I really don't think your imagery works here.

You are really grasping at straws here.

Mt 27:59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

John 19:39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

The tomb was hewn out in the rock. It was a cave that was set in the rock of a hill. When Jesus was placed in there he was as good as buried, as the Scripture says, for he was immersed in the cave. There was rock or earth all around him, on ever side.

In John 19:40 the actual word bury is used. But what does it mean here?
1779 entaphiazo en-taf-ee-ad'-zo
from a compound of 1722 and 5028; to inswathe with cerements for interment:--bury.
--He was wrapped in about 100 pounds of ceremonial cloths and spices, totally wrapped, totally immersed. Thus Jesus was not only immersed in this picture once, but twice: once in the cave, and once in the cloths. To add to this you have the weight of Scripture:

Mat.12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
---Was Jonah immersed or sprinkled?

Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Mark 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

Mark 10:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

1Cor.15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
---Was he buried or not?
---The Greek word "buried" here in 1Cor.15:4 is different from that in John 19:40 Here it is:
2290 - Greek 2290 thapto thap'-to
a primary verb; to celebrate funeral rites, i.e. inter:--bury.

He was buried, immersed, in the heart of the earth, as the Scripture says. Nothing could be more clear than this fact.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Sir Ed:

I can put out unsubstantiated generalizations just as well as Glenn.

Try this: The above statement is an extra-Biblical, man-made, heretical doctrine.

If so demonstrate it by Scripture. The Scripture I just posted demonstrates that baptism is a picture of immersion. The word baptism itself means immersion. That is its primary meaning, and that is what it pictures both in the death of Christ and in our death to our old life before salvation, (we bury it--not the old nature, but the old life), and rise again with newness of life in Jesus Christ.

[ June 10, 2002, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[Baptist Vine]

It's being made way too complicated. Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved. Your feeblest least effort will be credited as a full revelation. Your worst for His best. Your faith is credited as righteousness.

The thief on the cross had no understanding that is indicated by said thief's remarks, except for a realization of his guilt, "...we're only getting what we're due, we've sinned...etc"

As for all the arguments about baptism and John the Baptist and the thief that I saw at the beginning of this thread.

There is a scripture that has John the Baptist at a later point when he is in prision sending his diciples to Jesus to ask whether Jesus is the one who was to come or should we look for someone else. It seems that John the Baptist can also be tried and doubt after a little prison time. And this after John proclaims with such certainty that Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, whom John is not fit to untie his sandals. John says to the people, "...this is He of whom I spoke..." So at one time John was certain. When John finds himself in prison, he sends diciples to ask Jesus to clarify the agenda.

Jesus responds brilliantly: "Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me." There comes a time when you will just have to go on. You've had all the signs you're going to get. That is faith.

 

[Chemnitz]

The tomb was hewn out in the rock. It was a cave that was set in the rock of a hill. When Jesus was placed in there he was as good as buried, as the Scripture says, for he was immersed in the cave. There was rock or earth all around him, on ever side.

As if your translation wasn't bad enough. I guess you need to learn what immerse means, here I will help you.

Main Entry: im·merse
Pronunciation: i-'m&rs
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): im·mersed; im·mers·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin immersus, past participle of immergere, from in- + mergere to merge
Date: 15th century
1 : to plunge into something that surrounds or covers; especially : to plunge or dip into a fluid

I really don't think you can claim that by being in a cave he was immersed. Since burial in a cave is in no way similar to immersion.

Mat.12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
---Was Jonah immersed or sprinkled?

Maybe you should reread Jonah. Jonah likened the time he spent in the belly of a fish to Sheol (Jonah 2). In the heart of the earth can also be read as figurative language for hell and would tie in nicely with 1 Pt 3:19. BTW Jonah was neither immersed or sprinkled, he was swallowed.

The Scripture I just posted demonstrates that baptism is a picture of immersion. The word baptism itself means immersion.

And did a pretty poor job at it too. Your "evidence" did nothing to prove your point. When are you going to open your eyes and realize that baptism does not just mean immersion.

 

[hph]

TIME AND TIME AGAIN IN SCRIPTURE WE SEE "..BUT HE WHO BELIEVES NOT SHALL BE DAMNED..."BUT NOWHERE DOES IT SAY "...HE WHO IS BAPTISED NOT SHALL BE DAMNED...".IT SEEMS YOU FOLKS DONT WANT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL, YOU JUST WANT TO PASS OUT SOAP.
BAPTISM DOES MEAN IMMERSION , WHEN PEOPLE ARE BURNED ,ALL OF 'EM IS ASH,WHEN THEIR BUIRED ALL OF 'EM IS COVERED, AND YES WHEN THEIR ENTOMED ,ALL OF 'EM IS IN THE TOMB.SO YES IT MEANS ALL.
BUT THE POINT YOUR MISSING IS SALVATION ISN'T BY WATER BUT BY FAITH IN CHRIST ALONE.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Yes, a shower is just as effective as a bath.

What about a burial then? Have you ever seen a man burried without being immersed in dirt?

 

[Chemnitz]

Caps Lock makes it easy to spot people who have nothing to back up their opinion. Which inturn makes it easy to skip irrelevant posts.

Sola you might as well give up, because according to Col 2:12 we have been buried along with Christ. Guess what, Jesus wasn't buried in the ground. He was placed in a tomb.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Jesus wasn't buried in the ground. He was placed in a tomb.

Good point! So did the tomb have holes in the wall or did it completely cover him?

 

[Chemnitz]

The point is by the definition of immerse you cannott be immersed in a tomb.

 

[SolaScriptura]

So did the walls completely surround him or not?

You don't have to tell me what your point is - I know what it is. My point is that you are ignoring the fact that you are wrong. The walls of the tomb completely surrounded him and in baptism the water completely surrounds a person - hence: immersion.

Now, if you still don't believe that baptism must be by immersion, show me an example in the Bible where it isn't by immersion. You are not going to find one.

Man I love the Bible - it stops everyone's mouth before God.

 

[Jerry Moon]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
The point is by the definition of immerse you cannott be immersed in a tomb.

The point is, that He was buried... He wasn't sprinkled with a little dirt and put on disply for all to see...

 

[Chemnitz]

I am still waiting for Solid Biblical proof that Baptism was done by immersion, not a bunch of verses where immersion could be inferred, because inferrence is not the same as proof since it can go either way.

Sola, are you still pursuing the tomb as immersion. I will give you credit for persistance but not much in anything else. Being placed in a tomb and being immersed in something is in no way similar.

[ June 10, 2002, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
The point is by the definition of immerse you cannott be immersed in a tomb.

Perhaps more to the point: you need to know the definintion of immerse:

Immerse:
1. To dip or lower into a liquid; soak thoroughly; ?He immersed his aching feet in a bucket of hot water.' syn: submerge, duck. See syn. under dip.
2. To baptize by dipping (a person) completely under water.
3. Figurative. To involve deeply; absorb: ?immersed in thought, immersed in debts. The ambitious man immersed himself in business affairs seven days a week.' Syn: engross, occupy.
4. To embed, bury.
From: Latin immersus, past participle of immergere. In + mergere to plunge.
World Book Dictionary

Definitions #1 and #2 both describe baptism.
Definition #4 describes the burial of Christ; he was buried, immersed in a cave.

Thus the symbolism given in Romans 6:3,4: we, by a symbolic act of baptism (immersion) symbolize not only the death of Christ, but our own death to our old life. As Christ arose from the dead we arise out of the water, a picture of our rising in newness of life--that life which was given to those that believed on Christ at the point of salvation. That is, when they trusted the sacrificial work of Christ by faith, and by faith alone.
DHK

 

[Chemnitz]

Good grief, you are so desperate to prove your point you have to dig for a definition that fits your needs. There is one problem with your idea, not all synonyms are created equal(Exegetical Fallacies, D.A. Carson;What does this mean J. Voelz). Just because Immerse can in part mean to bury does not mean that it means the exact same thing.
Main Entry: bury
Pronunciation: 'ber-E also 'b&r-
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): bur·ied; bury·ing
Etymology: Middle English burien, from Old English byrgan; akin to Old High German bergan to shelter, Russian berech' to spare
Date: before 12th century
1 : to dispose of by depositing in or as if in the earth; especially : to inter with funeral ceremonies
2 a : to conceal by or as if by covering with earth b : to cover from view <buried her face in her hands>
3 a : to have done with <burying their differences> b : to conceal in obscurity <buried the retraction among the classified ads> c : SUBMERGE, ENGROSS -- usually used with in <buried himself in his books>
4 : to put (a playing card) out of play by placing it in or under the dealer's pack
5 : to succeed emphatically or impressively in making (a shot) <bury a jumper>
6 : to defeat overwhelmingly
-meriam webster

The closest meaning of bury to immerse doesn't even relate to burials.