I am working on an answer but I am a slow typist and a slow thinker. I killed far too many brain cells in my misspent youth. I also want to approach this cautiously. I honestly smell a trap. What you are asking is for us to put God in our rational box. As long as it is understood that God doesn't fit within a logical box and that logic is a tool not a final authority I will attempt to give an honest and reasonable response. One thing is for sure, it ain't going to be a short answer.
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What part does Satan play?
- Thread starter Crabtownboy
- Start date
quantumfaith
Active Member
Ron, speaking ONLY for myself, I have no desire to "trap" anyone nor play "gotcha", just simply a reasonable and honest trading of thoughts etc.
What she said. Pretty much anything I start to write Amy has said it for me. On just about every subject. Scary...
Nor am I laying a trap. I am looking for a logical explanation from a Calvinist point of view. Well, I look for rational replies on both side of the question. To me it is a huge problem if I understand the beliefs some Calvinist have voiced here.
1) God's permissive will allows Satan to enter the theodicy equation.
2) He was created because God saw it fit to create him. I do not have an answer beyond this.
3) Satan's desires are evil. I'm really torn on the issue of compatibilism vs. determinism, but that seems to be the most straightforward answer I can give.
4) Of course, he takes actions of his own will.
5) No, I'm not exactly sure how God is not morally culpable for evil, but scripture does not permit us to claim that God is culpable. I do not know the details of how this works out, but scripture affirms that God is in control of everything, evil exists, and he is entirely good.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
1. God decrees all things, but there are active decrees and passive/permissive decrees of God. He has perfect foreknowledge of sin and evil and permits it to exist though he has the power to stop it. He does not cause or do evil, he allows it in order to expose it and destroy it once and for all times.
2. Light is not fully known or appreciated without the knowledge of darkness. In the same manner, good is not fully known or loved without the knowledge of evil.
3. God's foreknowledge of Satan's free moral choices is not equal to God's determination of said choices. Satan is fully culpable for his rebellion because he could have done otherwise. There was nothing preventing him from choosing to remain submissive to God's authority.
4. Yes, he rebelled, tempts and remains the ruler and prince of this dark world where he prowls like a lion seeking whom he may devour. One day he will be completely defeated.
5. Not if he does so passively...by merely allowing sinful rebellion. Is the cop culpable for the speeder's crime by hiding in the bushes, when by merely making his presence known the speeder would slow down?
Now to the questions.
1. If God preordained everything that happens where does Satan come in?
2. Why was he created?
3. If all was preordained how then Satan is guilty of evil as he only does what God preordained?
4. Does Satan really do anything?
5. If God preordained evil does that not make God evil also?
I am sure that more questions will come up.
Thanks for calm, rational replies.
1] Satan is a useful idiot in a sense.He is too stupid to understand fully what he has lost in his rebellion.Since the fall from heaven and defeat at the cross,he is like an angry dog on a leash.
2]He evidently was a higher order of angel, but being there is no redemption for fallen angels he becomes a sad object lesson for all the wicked ,men or demons.God allows him to steal ,kill, and destroy sometimes...yet only as God removes restrain, or protection. satan cannot act or go beyond God,s control.
3] satan like fallen men do what they desire to do....wickedness.fallen beings have a fallen nature so it is natural to rebel against God, His, wword, and His people.
4] satan like fallen men do what they choose to do...but it always is from an evil rebellious motive that fails to submit to God's righteousness.
5] Good and evil exist. God could have just made a universe full of bumble bees if that was the better part of wisdom[but it was not] He for His holy and wise purposes allows good and evil to co-exist for awhile,prior to the eternal state.....to display His attributes and perfections for His own purpose and glory. He makes known to us much of His will in the revealed word of God.
Other things we are told are the secret things that belong to God only.:type:
1. If God preordained everything that happens where does Satan come in?
2. Why was he created?
3. If all was preordained how then Satan is guilty of evil as he only does what God preordained?
4. Does Satan really do anything?
5. If God preordained evil does that not make God evil also?
I am sure that more questions will come up.
Thanks for calm, rational replies.
1] Satan is a useful idiot in a sense.He is too stupid to understand fully what he has lost in his rebellion.Since the fall from heaven and defeat at the cross,he is like an angry dog on a leash.
2]He evidently was a higher order of angel, but being there is no redemption for fallen angels he becomes a sad object lesson for all the wicked ,men or demons.God allows him to steal ,kill, and destroy sometimes...yet only as God removes restrain, or protection. satan cannot act or go beyond God,s control.
3] satan like fallen men do what they desire to do....wickedness.fallen beings have a fallen nature so it is natural to rebel against God, His, wword, and His people.
4] satan like fallen men do what they choose to do...but it always is from an evil rebellious motive that fails to submit to God's righteousness.
5] Good and evil exist. God could have just made a universe full of bumble bees if that was the better part of wisdom[but it was not] He for His holy and wise purposes allows good and evil to co-exist for awhile,prior to the eternal state.....to display His attributes and perfections for His own purpose and glory. He makes known to us much of His will in the revealed word of God.
Other things we are told are the secret things that belong to God only.:type:
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Actually, he is quite crafty and intelligent. He should not be underestimated.
Yes, indeed he is, but I understand what iconoclast is saying.
e.g. Satan's temptation of Christ in the wilderness where He offers Christ the kingdoms of the world if He would just fall down and worship him.
What words can we think of to describe this futile request?
unbelievable audacity?
unparalleled arrogance?
What was he thinking with his 1000 IQ!!?
HankD
Your second statement isn't necessarily true. I (among others) believe that God preordained the fall (in a permissive sense). He knew this would happen precisely as it did before he created man.
Love is not forced, even in a Calvinistic understanding of salvation. God doesn't drag us to him "kicking and screaming." He changes our hearts, and, as a result, we want to love him. We choose to love God, but we only do so because he first loved us (and changed our hearts toward him).
Your statement "But we are only able to love because God first loved us." is absolutely biblical and absolutely true. It also negates any idea of libertarian free will. If one is incapable of loving prior to God's intervention, then one does not have the "free will" to love because it is contingent upon an external force.
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I disagree with this part of your post. Satan is not stupid. He is very intelligent, but he IS full of sin and PRIDE. He cannot admit he is wrong. He desired to be God because of his pride and knows God will not allow it which makes him an angry dog on a leash. He attacks God's children because he cannot hurt God any other way.
Just like Satan, people reject God because of their pride. They also want to be their own god.
Was there a "time" (I put that in "" because it could be meaningless, even though we currently cannot experience anything without considering time, including knowing what is current) when there was no evil, and creating space/time, by God's own choice, including creating evil? Or, relegating the logic to middle school literature level, is it true in the spiritual realm that "without conflict there is no story?" Indeed, are there activities that go on in heaven with no conflicts, as if everything and every being is robotized? The 24 elders make it seem so, if all they ever do is fall down and worship.
Nevertheless, although we do not know experience without time, nor story without conflict, could not an all-powerful God have created a universe of intelligent beings who will (time) come to him voluntarily unless there were others who refused (the conflict) to do so?
quantumfaith
Active Member
The second statement isn't "necessarily" true, but it could be true. The absolute truth of it (among a multitude of others) is unknowable by us, thus it is our own selected theological/philosophical positions which assign a "temporary" truth value to it.
I agree. Counterfactuals with God's actions are not understandable.
I agree with Amy that love requires free will.
And while God did not intend evil, I believe evil is inevitable in creatures with free will. Any thing God would create must be inferior to him, it is impossible to be equal to God. As God is perfectly righteous, it is impossible for his creation to be perfectly righteous. Therefore God knew both angels and man would sin, and before time God had already determined to win back rebellious man through love which is his Son Jesus Christ. Through Christ God could demonstrate his love.
As for Satan, I believe his original purpose was to serve and glorify God, and God had bestowed great honor on him. He was covered with precious stones and is the pinnacle of beauty. He was covered with musical instruments, so I believe he was charged with worship. He was full of wisdom, thus he is able to easily deceive others.
Satan's sin was pride and self love. He recognized his wisdom and beauty and exalted himself above God.
And while God did not intend evil, I believe evil is inevitable in creatures with free will. Any thing God would create must be inferior to him, it is impossible to be equal to God. As God is perfectly righteous, it is impossible for his creation to be perfectly righteous. Therefore God knew both angels and man would sin, and before time God had already determined to win back rebellious man through love which is his Son Jesus Christ. Through Christ God could demonstrate his love.
As for Satan, I believe his original purpose was to serve and glorify God, and God had bestowed great honor on him. He was covered with precious stones and is the pinnacle of beauty. He was covered with musical instruments, so I believe he was charged with worship. He was full of wisdom, thus he is able to easily deceive others.
Satan's sin was pride and self love. He recognized his wisdom and beauty and exalted himself above God.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Nor are they with any truly free agent.
How do we know that?
Is God not able to give free agency to all humankind and allow all to choose one way or another without violating His absolute sovereignty and/or compromise man's accountability to His maker?
This sound's like a paradox but so does the incarnation.
Once, when explaining the incarnation to a moslem, he said "it can't be. It is impossible. Jesus cannot be both God and man, He must be one or the other".
HankD
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
How do we know that it is impossible to fully understand all the complexities of why a free moral agent chooses one option over the other? Because no human fully understands it and scripture doesn't fully reveal all these complexities. Are you attempting to argue that we can fully comprehend such things?
I believe He is so able, yes.
Good point. I agree. :thumbsup:
Amy, I guess I just don't understand how (based on how you've framed the meanings of free will and true love) we will truly love God in heaven? Will we be able to rebel in heaven? I assume you believe not. Well, won't that make us the dreaded robots of Calvinism in heaven? How is that true love, if we won't have the free will not to love? I've heard the answers before, but I still can't get over that huge inconsistency, in my mind. Guess I'm just blind to the truth, eh?