What percent of Baptists are saved?

[Tazman]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
Based on my experience as a Baptist, I think it's pretty naive to think that everyone who makes a profession of faith and is baptized is truly "saved". Sure, the ideal is that the true "membership" of the local baptist church is composed only of "baptized believers", but how does one KNOW who the genuine believers are? You can't, at least not with absolute certainty. Only God knows, but we can recognize (in a less than absolute sense) those who are truly following Christ--1 John gives some important criteria, for example. The problem in the baptist church is the tendancy to automatically equate every "profession of faith" as a genuine conversion when such may not be the case. Therefore, no doubt many are baptized who have not "counted the cost" but who can say all the right things in order to get their "fire insurance". Thus, the ideal of only baptized BELEIVERS being members does not seem to match the reality of the situation in baptist churches. So I guess Tuor's question is how wide (roughly, of course) is the discrepancy between the real and the ideal in baptist churches? My answer, is that I don't know, but I believe such a discrepancy exists.

We cannot determine who's commitment to God is real or fake. But we can present the correct information so that they can make their own choice. If you teach some one that "Jesus' Baptism" is of no value other than "Obedience" or following an example, but don't show ALL the information concerning the topic then that person faith is no longer based on the bible, but simply on your opinions. Thus you should state to them that this I your Opinion and see what they say after reading the text for themselves.

God is looking for those that will worship Him in TRUTH and Spirt (John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers MUST worship in spirit AND in TRUTH) .


So truth matters to God of those to whome He accepts. (Read Mattew 15:all Great example of worship without truth and the result is failure to be saved by Jesus)

The bible reads very clear in most situations and translation. Romans 10:9 (though taken out of context - by being applied to non-christians) is not the only scripture concerning salvation. We teach all the scripture and let people question and understand from God and not from us so that we won't be accused of altering the truth for our own profit.

Whether if by associations, Personal belief or anything else: Broad is the road that leads to destruction (Matthew 7, narrow is the road that leads to Life and ONLY a FEW finds it.

People must be taught to change their lives with the truth and not with a lie.

I don't care If you claim to be catholic, Baptist, church of christ, or whatever, It doesn't matter to God the name of your group, but what does matter if that INDIVIDUAL was taught and continued living in truth for Jesus. Yes, a 100% of THOSE people who may or maynot have an affiliation is part of Christ Body by faith and will be recognized by Jesus.

Whoever is not against us is for us (though they did not walk with them) Go figure

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Tazman:
We cannot determine who's commitment to God is real or fake.

I agree that we can't with absolute certainty determine whether one's commitment to God is real. Only God sees the heart. However, Jesus did say that a tree is known by the fruit it bears. He also instructs the Church to use discipline and consider the unrepentant (ie those who refuse to hear the Church) as "heathen and tax collectors" (Matt 18:17).John's first Epistle is full of ways we can know (presumably in a less than absolute sense) how we know whether we are of the truth. Even Paul instructs us to examined ourselves and see whether or not we are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5).

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
Wow, this has really gotten funny!

100% percent of baptists are saved because you have to be saved to be a baptist?

You've got it.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by trying2understand:
Wow, this has really gotten funny!

100% percent of baptists are saved because you have to be saved to be a baptist?

You've got it. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by trying2understand:
Wow, this has really gotten funny!

100% percent of baptists are saved because you have to be saved to be a baptist?

You've got it. </font>[/QUOTE] </font>[/QUOTE]Actually this concept should not be strange to you Catholics. The only prerequisite to being a Catholic is being baptized. All infants who are baptized as Catholics are Catholics. It doesn't matters if they grow up to be among the most notorious criminals: murderers, thieves, inside traders, alcoholics, etc.
The famous mobsters of both Italy and New York were all granted respected Catholic funerals in spite of the horrendous crimes they had committed.
The Keenedy family made their millions from their lucrative booze business; the result of ruined the lives of millions. They didn't care. It even brought disgrace and possibly even murder into their own family. They all received decent and high profile Catholic burials, with the Catholic blessing upon them.
The Catholic church blesses, whether explicitly or implicitly sin.

You baptize the infant into Catholicism. The Catholic adulterer, crook, murderer, etc. is still a Catholic. When is the last time you counted all the adulterers in the Catholic Church? What percentage do they make? How about sexual perverts? How about people who are just not saved?
DHK

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by DHK:
Actually this concept should not be strange to you Catholics. The only prerequisite to being a Catholic is being baptized.

Actually, I'm not a Catholic. I'm still a Baptist. I was just rolling my eyes at the assertion that being a Baptist is equivalent to being saved.

However, you do make some good points about the Catholic church, but those points could also be made about any denomination.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
Wow, this has really gotten funny!

100% percent of baptists are saved because you have to be saved to be a baptist?

]

Posted by DHK:
Actually this concept should not be strange to you Catholics. The only prerequisite to being a Catholic is being baptized. All infants who are baptized as Catholics are Catholics.

True.

It doesn't matters if they grow up to be among the most notorious criminals: murderers, thieves, inside traders, alcoholics, etc.

Not true. One must stay faithful to the teachings of the Church to remain Catholic.

What you are describing here is sin. Whether sin separates one from the Church depends on the sin. Abortion for example separates one automatically from the Church.

As to the particular sins which you have enumerated, it would depend on the repentance of the individual for such sin.

BTW, are you then saying that a supposed saved baptist who falls to alcoholism later in life is no longer a baptist and therefore no longer saved? So much for OSAS.

The famous mobsters of both Italy and New York were all granted respected Catholic funerals in spite of the horrendous crimes they had committed.

Do you know for a fact that they remained unrepentant to their death? What if they had repented on their deathbed?

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tazman:
We cannot determine who's commitment to God is real or fake.

I agree that we can't with absolute certainty determine whether one's commitment to God is real. Only God sees the heart. However, Jesus did say that a tree is known by the fruit it bears. He also instructs the Church to use discipline and consider the unrepentant (ie those who refuse to hear the Church) as "heathen and tax collectors" (Matt 18:17).John's first Epistle is full of ways we can know (presumably in a less than absolute sense) how we know whether we are of the truth. Even Paul instructs us to examined ourselves and see whether or not we are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5). </font>[/QUOTE]I agree with that

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Tazman:
We cannot determine who's commitment to God is real or fake.

How do you know that your own commitment to God is real? You could be fooling yourself.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:

As to the particular sins which you have enumerated, it would depend on the repentance of the individual for such sin.

BTW, are you then saying that a supposed saved baptist who falls to alcoholism later in life is no longer a baptist and therefore no longer saved? So much for OSAS.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The famous mobsters of both Italy and New York were all granted respected Catholic funerals in spite of the horrendous crimes they had committed.

Do you know for a fact that they remained unrepentant to their death? What if they had repented on their deathbed? </font>[/QUOTE]In the time that I have been a member of this church we have actively excommunicated people from our assembly on four different occasions. I have never once heard of that happening in a Catholic church, not once. Sexual perverts get moved around, not excommunicated. We deal with sin in a Biblical manner according to Matthew 18. We have no need to wait until so-called death bed repentance. There would be no mobster in our church. Such sin is not tolerated. It is dealt with immediately, and if not repented of, that member faces certain consequences of the entire congregation. There are no unrepentant unsaved individual in our church.
DHK

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
In the time that I have been a member of this church we have actively excommunicated people from our assembly on four different occasions. I have never once heard of that happening in a Catholic church, not once.

By your logic then, those four baptists are the only baptists to have ever been excommunicated by a baptist church because I have never heard of any other.

DHK, you seem to think that your personal experiences and personal knowledge constitute the sum total of all that happens in the world.

Sorry, but it ain't so.

 

[Paul of Eugene]

Hmmmm. How much of the discussion here is just about words and what words mean?

Sure, its in our baptist doctrine that you first get saved then baptized. Its also in our practice not to question anyone's declaration they have accepted Christ. So of course our membership roles have people in them that Christ has not saved.

It is quite obvious the thread is about how many of those there are. Its a legitimate question.

So while in one sense you might say they aren't true members because they don't meet the definition makes sense, it isn't common sense. Pun intended.

I'm going to say I suppose it to be about 80% of the listed members in the average baptist church have actually found salvation in Jesus Christ according to the heavenly records, that is, their names are recorded in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Hogwash Thessalonian! That's your Catholic view of Protestants and nothing more. Remember, I do NOT debate with Catholics.

Diane

I debate with protestants so you won't mind me piping up again I hope. Check in acts around chapter 20. Paul and Apollos had no problem debating other religions. I think what you are refering to here is that I said those words are not specifically in the Bible.
No, Diane, not hogwash as I have had many protestants (including DHK, a Baptist) use that very arguement on me. Just because you have found it lacking does not mean they don't use it. It just means that you guys don't have a set definition of anything. It is whatever the individual says something means.

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tazman:
We cannot determine who's commitment to God is real or fake.

How do you know that your own commitment to God is real? You could be fooling yourself. </font>[/QUOTE]Well, lets see. I could say I know God loves me because of 'Everything He has blessed me with', but he also bless the wicked and they have the same things I do. I could say that I'm saved because I believe in Jesus Christ, but even demons believe in him and fear him more often than I do. I could say that 'I know my Scriptures' but I don't live them perfect like Jesus wants

The Point is I can say allot of things, but what God says means allot more than what I think.
I know I'm saved by the blood of christ, because I entered into a covenant with Christ based ONLY on ALL His terms through the following methods:

TRUTH
Even if a person believes in Christ but come to terms with him in a Lie, then they will not be accepted By him (Matthew 15:all Vain worship). I accept the truth of Jesus' teaching and its been made even more clear to me at this site that what I believe is TRUE

Faith
I believe Faith by itself is dead, so, I combine my faith with action Repentance


Confession
I believe Confession of Christ is due to a heart change biblically and I am, in faith, saying that He Is Lord.

Baptism
No one, even with the "re-arranging" of scriptures done by allot of people at this site, has PROVEN that baptism is not essential for having your sins washed away. And that I have done believing Jesus at HIS words.

It is my belief that I am saved base on the above working together and not apart. And I must continue till I Die repenting and confessing and having faith and serving GOD in order to be saved at the END OF MY LIFE OR WHEN JESUS COMES BACK

Matthew 24:45 "Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


I am a servant of Christ and I MUST live everyday as if he's coming back, because even the "SERVANTS" will be condemned if they stop living accordingly

Sorry for the long answer, but in short I'm very sure. I see that it would not take much for me to please the god of OSAS, because I already have belief

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Tazman:

Sorry for the long answer, but in short I'm very sure. I see that it would not take much for me to please the god of OSAS, because I already have belief

Good post, Tazman.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
In the time that I have been a member of this church we have actively excommunicated people from our assembly on four different occasions. I have never once heard of that happening in a Catholic church, not once.

By your logic then, those four baptists are the only baptists to have ever been excommunicated by a baptist church because I have never heard of any other.

DHK, you seem to think that your personal experiences and personal knowledge constitute the sum total of all that happens in the world.

Sorry, but it ain't so. </font>[/QUOTE]You have the wrong logic T2U. My knowledge is not limited to my experience, as I hope yours isn't either. Have you ever heard of a man called Abraham Lincoln? If your knwledge is limited by experience you have neither heard of him nor, know nothing about him. That is what you say about my knowledge about Baptist and Catholic discipline--a naive false accusation.

I do know this: whether it be in all of the Catholic churches that I attended through my life as a Catholic;
whether it be through my knowledge of the media and reading about the recent sex scandals of the Roman Catholics;
whether it be through my knowledge of the Canadian atrocities of priests sexually molesting children in schools for aboriginals;
whether it through my knowledge of Catholics offering chickens to Mary as sacrifices under the auspices of the Catholic Church;
and many other such allegations;

I have never, never, seen excommunication take place in a Catholic Church according to Matthew 18. Most priests and bishops get away scot free, and are just moved from one parish to another.

In regards to other Baptist churches, I know of many other churches that have practiced church discipline just as we have. My knowledge is not limited just to my own personal experience.
DHK

 

[Tazman]

T2U,

DHK seems to be correct in his assertion. i would have to agree with him. I know for a fact that in most major Denominations or groups whichever you prefer, there has been sexual offenses done against members by the "Leaders", However, only few, very few, resigned from their position. It's been exposed mostly in the Catholic Religions. I have heard of Catholic priest who have stepped down, but not any that has been kicked out.
It is biblical to disfellowship any member that does not hold to scripture in these specific areas.

 

[Singer]

(Thes)

"It just means that you guys don't have a set definition of anything. It is
whatever the individual says something means."

(Singer)

Would it be more correct to believe the translations from Second Century
Catholics verses the personal urgings of the Holy Spirit today...?

[....] Second Century Catholics

[ X ] The Holy Spirit 2003

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
I have never, never, seen ...

...my knowledge is not limited just to my own personal experience.

So you say. Oh wait, you still only talk about what you personally have seen and not seen.

If you have never, never seen; then I guess it has never, never happened.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Tazman:

It is biblical to disfellowship any member that does not hold to scripture in these specific areas.

Why haven't baptists disfellowshiped baptists (even baptist pastors)who run these juvenile detention centers where children are beaten, starved, tortured, and even murdered?

When these places get shut down, the baptists running them just move to another state and set up shop again.