What purpose does election and predestination serve?

What purpose does election and predestination serve?


While it does nothing to advance the Kingdom of God it most certainly complicates a simple gospel. People want to spend more time arguing over whether it was her will or Gods that saved her and forget to just rejoice that she is saved. God most certainly gets all the credit regardless of who has done what.

What the lost needs to know is that they can be a child of God because of the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Do they want it? They can have it?

1 Cor 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing F4 words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand F5 in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

 

Hello psalms109:31,

???? Please tell me why you posted this verse.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

********
14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16And he (<<< Christ )that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

***********
13And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

14Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

**************
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me

Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me

Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: [B]that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he[/B]: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me

John 8...

21Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come

24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.


47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Indeed..
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17And the way of peace have they not known:

18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.


47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

You keep failing to realize who God chose before the foundation of the world to sanctify by the Spirit. It is those who believe, He is not going to sactify by the Holy Spirit a non- believer but condemn them.

We all are are created for destruction and wrath the only one who was creater honor was Jesus. We are pretty arrogant if we were created for honor. I Hope you humble them my Lord God. Your only hope is Jesus. Who can save us from this body of death praise be to Jesus

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

There is not one righteous not one, so our only hope is Jesus. We do not seek after Him. So we are sent out by Jesus to seek and to tell the world that whosever believes shall be saved and whosoever does not will be condemned.

We are messenger of good news.

 

Reformbeliever -- got scriptural proof for that assertion?

See, I think it is false. I don't see God determining every act of every man beforehand else God is directly responsible for sin.

And even if He did choose the "elect" with no consideration for what He foresaw, you would still be saying He was ignorant of their specific actions because He is NOT responsible for sin!

skypair

 

Jarthur,

Please learn to use scripture properly. 2Thes 2:13 for instance. "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." There are 3 things mentioned here -- 1) salvation, 2) sanctification, and 3) belief of the truth. If you look at the 3, you will realize that you couldn't be saved nor sanctified unless you first believed and sanctified by the Spirit, right? It was THROUGH those things that God's choosing was done -- else the sentence would end "chosen you to salvation."

You Romans 11 citation is also without merit as it speaks of the nation of Israel as "clay" -- I don't know what bearing Rev 14 has on the topic at hand -- Ditto Gen 5 and Mt 11????

Isa 43, again, refers to national/religious Israel. You've been 'hoodwinked' into applying these as individual salvational truths.

And doesn't John 8:24 just lay it out for you?? "If be BELIEVE NOT that I am He, ye shall die in your sins?" Did He say "non-election" was the reason they would die in their sins? No. He said BELIEF, Jarthur.

I wish you would look at this issue of belief and realize that God has chosen believers to salvation. How did He know which ones would be believers? It's NOT predestination -- it's by foreknowledge.

skypair

 

JD, Jarthur, Psa109, 2Tim,

Apparently you are not reading rippon's thread so I will post this here as well.

I was reading Ray Stedman last night and I love his description that I hope you will enjoy too.

"It is also in the Scriptures that we learn that "God has chosen" us (1Thes 1:4). How do you know that out of the millions who have ever lived on earth God chose you? The answer is that you began to be drawn to God, to sense a desire for Him. The calling of God by means of the Spirit awakes a hunger within. If you are longing to be different, if you want to be more than you are now, if you have tried to change but cannot... you are being drawn by the Spirit! Jesus said, 'No one can come to me except the Father who sent me draws him.' (John 6:44).

...

"Paul goes on to detail the steps necessary to God's call. First, the 'gospel ... came not simply with words.' The Scriptures are preached, the truth declared. ...

"The second factor iin God's call is His power. 'Our gospel came to you not merely with words but also with power' (v. 5). ... The gospel has the ability to compel ... They became different people.

"Also, says Paul, the gospel comes 'with the Holy Spirit' (v. 5). Behind the power is the reality of God himself. ... He begins to minister to our minds and our hearts from within...

"Finally, the gospel came 'with deep conviction' (v. 5), moving the wills of the Thessalonians. They acted. They did something about it: they yielded their lives to God. ... That is the final, necessary step. Ultimately, the will must be moved. Jesus says, 'Behold I stand at the door and knock..." ...

"This, then, is 'the work of faith.' Until you have actually received Christ, you have not exercised faith. You can believe the story to be true, but until it moves you to accept the Lord, to invite him into your heart, you have not exercised faith."

skypair

 

Hello psalms109:31,

Please read the passage that tells us what election is. Romans 9. Having done NOTHING!! God elects. Not because we choose. Not based on good. Not based on anything in us. NOTHING. It is because of Him who called us.

Notice a list of black and whites. God elects because He is God, not based on us.

The 2nd Son is chose over the 1st Son. Black and white.

Why? To prove election it says in verse 11. Most feel like the 1st Son should be chosen or maybe both sons be chosen. But God chose the 2nd Son to show election.

Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated Black and white

mercy over no mercy

compassion over no compassion

honour over dishonour

glory over destruction

Hath not the potter power over the clay? Yes
Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? No
Does God have the power to raise Pharaoh, for the purpose of dishonour? Yes

Numbers 14:17
And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my lord be great......

Job 24:22
He draweth also the mighty with his power: he riseth up, and no man is sure of life.

7The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.

8The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.


And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my lord be great......

In Christ...James

 

Hello skypair,

I'll try.

Indeed. God chose for salvation/sanctification/and belief.
You are also right that a person cannot be sanctified unless they believe. And...by the same logic, one cannot believe unless they are chosen. How am I doing so far?

Not really. It was FOR the reason to believe. right? I mean..that is what the verse says....if you do not read it backwards.

Rev was quoted to show Christ does not COME and save mankind. Christ Saves His elect and kills those that stand in His way.

If God idea was to save the whole world....
When in the end..
When the sinner is showen Hell..
When the sinner is told to step over the edge....
When the sinner sees the smoke....
When the sinner sees the flames
When the sinner feels the heat of the fire...
When the sinner knows indeed God is who He says He is...
With one foot on the edge of Hell.....
If the sinner says....
OK..God..you know what? I believe you now. Ok..you are God....save me!!

Will God save the sinner? Is This Gods goal? If So...at that time will be a good time.

Will God save this sinner?

Indeed...it is a nation.
It deals with CHOSING a nation. God says he choses so they WILL believe. Is that what it says? Is this the naturee of God? Am I changing the Bible? I'm I sticking with the Bible on this?

Indeed....
And it also says WHY they don't believe. They do not believe because they do not hear/understand. right?

How did he Know? God decreed it!!! Does not the potter have the power over the clay?


And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my lord be great......


OK...how did I do?



In Christ...James

 

Blood of Jesus

It does not matter if we do any right or wrong, God did not choose us on the basis of that. He choose those who believe.

Abraham believed God and it was credit to Him as righteousness.

Only through the washing of His word that we are made clean, but first we must trust in Jesus and His word.

If you understand to enter the elect you have to believe. It is by grace we are saved through faith. You could understand the rest of the scriptures clearer.

 

russell55, I don't see that as a thought or a plan. The Text puts it out there as "this happened", not "it will happen". If anything the wording is past tense.

 

Not so good. You totally ignore "through".

 

So at what "time" were you elected? What "time" was this at before the foundation of the world...before there was such a thing as man and time? What "time" did God do the electing if man and "time" had not been created yet...since God is bound to dealing within man's measurement of "time"?

 

If God is the one who created "time", I suppose He knew what He was talking about when He said "before".

 

So, again, I ask "when"? Before is a time statment, meaning anything happening "before" something is within time. Did God have to create time so He could make a decision "before"?

 

Which assertation? That God is all knowing? If I have to show you that, there is no sense in continuing with you.

If it is that God's perfect knowledge is the determining factor of men's choices, that is easy. If God knows the future, and He does, then what He knows to be is exactly what men will choose to do. If not, then He does not really know the future.

How about this scripture? Romans 9:17
15. For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16. So then it {does} not {depend} on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18. So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20. On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21. Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

He raised up Pharaoh for the express purpose of demonstrating His power and might.

Do you think that Joseph's brothers could have chosen to do differently that what God had planned?

Do you really think God is so weak that He is forming His plan around the decisions of man?

NOT my God.

 

:thumbsup:
I asked my pastor (who's a calvinist) this same thing after he stated in a sermon God "orders" every event in history. I know what he meant, but when asked I got the "God allows" response which totally contradicts "ordering".
This is the one thing that a calvinist can not get around. If God has "ordered" EVERY SINGLE event for every man...He would be the author of sin.

 

Your position makes Him weak, not His position. Does this look like His plan is formed "around" men?
Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

 

limitation

God will show mercy to whom He will show mercy to and He has decided to show mercy to believers.

It is God who limited Himself to mans decision. So if we walk away from Jesus we cannot blame God, because He does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. So all we can do is blame ourselves for walking away.

God will use the wicked for His purpose, but even they have a hope through Jesus.

Through Jesus God has opened the door to the world and made us the messenger of it.

God has set all the rules and regulation aside and gave us a better hope to draw near to God through Jesus.

Man from the beginning have been wanting to blame God, but it is your own fault. Because you have the same hope as I do.

Jesus is your only hope.

 

If you want to say He is the author of sin.... go ahead. I believe the Bible. God is the first cause, but not the author of sin. How does that work? I don't know, I just trust Him.

 

My position makes Him weak? I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion, but you are entitled to it.

Yes, Mar 16:16 is absolutely true. Not sure what it has to do with the subject. They believe because they are born again. If they believe and have not been born again, they are no different than demons who believe.