What purpose does election and predestination serve?

[Jarthur001]

As I stated prior, "pro" means "above, ago, before, or after". Substitute each of those for "before", and you clearly get different meanings. Above?

Sorry...but this is just not the case.

"pro" is used 48 times in the Bible. 44 times it is translated before. The other times are listed below. You will find that each time the word means "before"

2Cr 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Jam 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and [your] nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

Act 23:15 Now therefore ye with the council signify to the chief captain that he bring him down unto you to morrow, as though ye would enquire something more perfectly concerning him: and we, or ever he come near, are ready to kill him.

 

[skypair]

To get back to my point, again I ask - Why did God "predestine" that which he already knew would happen anyway? Was there an answer in this thread? Did I miss it?

OK, here's the answer again. God didn't "predestine that which He already knew would happen anyway" -- He predestined someONE He already foreknew!

"Elect" doesn't mean "save," for instance. And "predestine" does not apply to the question of salvation individually nor does God predestine the lost individually (you were lost once yourself, no? )

Here's how these terms make sense together, JD. God IS omniscient -- He can see all time from Alpha to Omega (of creation) and beyond! In doing so, God did NOT choose/"elect" who would be saved. The "elect" are those whom He saw would BELIEVE. "Foreknow" in Rom 8:29 does NOT carry with it the notion of an act of God but of a saving response to God. God, BTW, had a choice as to how He would make salvation available and He did it by the "foolish" means known as "the preaching of the gospel" 1Cor 1:21!

So He then (Rom 8:29) predestines those who believe to the sanctification of Spirit constantly growing toward conformity to the image of His Son. THAT is what is predestined -- our sanctification, not our salvation.

So let's see if we have this straight -- the "elect" are believers. "Election" is God's purpose for the elect after they are saved. "Predestination" = "election" (as in "calling and election sure" - you can't make your salvation "sure" but you can make your God's purpose for you "sure"/stronger/more effective). Has nothing to do with salvation -- only what God plans for His own "sheep" or "chosen."

skypair

skypair

 

[webdog]

rest my case. Notice in every place at the same TIME!!! That is the point.
Notice also..Existence in all places or every where at the same TIME!!!!
God is IN time..when He works with man. Just as you have shown above.

So at what "time" were you elected? What "time" was this at before the foundation of the world...before there was such a thing as man and time? What "time" did God do the electing if man and "time" had not been created yet...since God is bound to dealing within man's measurement of "time"?

 

[webdog]

Sorry...but this is just not the case.

"pro" is used 48 times in the Bible. 44 times it is translated before. The other times are listed below. You will find that each time the word means "before"

I rest my case. You so vehemently suggested it ALWAYS meant before, even pulling out your english dictionary to explain to me what before meant, to further build your little man of straw.

 

[webdog]

Let it be shown that freewillism is based on emotion and now magic.

and Fortune tellers and prophets are about the same.

Fail to notice the quotes around "magical", James? What does that normally mean? You might want to pull out your little dictionary for another lesson...
I'm getting real tired of the way you continue to misrepresent what I am saying. You do this with eveyone who doesn't agree with your position. Please start showing a little class in your debating.

 

[webdog]

==O gosh, here we go again :tonofbricks:

Unless it can be refuted by either you or James without building strawmen, feel free. Do you believe as James does that in dealing with man, God is bound by time? When were you elected, if the world, man, and time had not been created yet?

 

[J.D.]

OK, here's the answer again. God didn't "predestine that which He already knew would happen anyway" -- He predestined someONE He already foreknew!





skypair

You are arguing the semantics, but okay let’s change the verbiage of the question.

If God already knows that some one will be saved, why did he then predestine them to a place he already knows they are going to anyway?

(btw God only elects people, but predestines things, people, and events)

 

[skypair]

If God already knows that some one will be saved, why did he then predestine them to a place he already knows they are going to anyway?

I was just trying to answer what I thought was the question, sir.

Now, let's say God foreknows that you will be saved --- isn't His plan/purpose for you to end up in heaven?

The way you state it, you seem to be asking why God would have to predestine someone to heaven twice. Not so -- that first "foreknow" is not God's part to decide. It is man's part to decide whether he/she receives heaven or hell. That is precisely why it is not a "double predestination." God decides where you go because you decide where you will go. God merely foreknows from eternity past which one you choose.

If you choose heaven/Him, then He predestines your growth into conformity to the image of Christ until you arrive in heaven, right?

skypair

 

[J.D.]

Let me try it this way-

If God looked into the future and saw that Skypair would accept Christ, and follow Christ in sanctification, and live in faith to death, and would go to be with the Lord, and would be resuurected to life, and live forever in the "new Jerusalem"; if God foresaw all of these events, what action would be necessary on His behalf to ensure these events would take place? Well, no action would be required by God to ensure that which must come to pass anyway.

But "predestine", or "predestinate", is a verb, is it not? Therefore predestination is an act of God.

This proves that if foreknowledge was merely forsight, then neither election nor predestination would even exist. The fact that election and predestination are actions of God necessitates that we understand foreknowledge to be so much more than mere foresight.

The only conclusion we can come to is that God knows the future, not only because he foresees it, but because He also has determined the future through His acts of elections and predestination.

"known unto God are his works from the foundation of the world" Act 15

 

[skypair]

JD,

...if God foresaw all of these events, what action would be necessary on His behalf to ensure these events would take place?

God leads us through life -- He answers our prayers -- He teaches us -- He provides us all things. So when He foresaw that we would receive, He also saw every decision we would make and chose His response to them. THAT is what He predestined, JD. How He would guide us to become more and more like Christ.

Now obviously, many won't be guided as well nor will all be guided into the same vocation, city, etc. But you see --- according to our foreknown obedience, God aims us toward our heavenly destiny. He is able, Phil 3:21, "to change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." And so this is what He predestinates in eternity past.

Aren't you glad He has a plan for your life -- to bless you and not to curse you?!

This proves that if foreknowledge was merely forsight, then neither election nor predestination would even exist. The fact that election and predestination are actions of God necessitates that we understand foreknowledge to be so much more than mere foresight.

Don't you see that it is precisely because predestine is a action verb and foreknow is a passive verb that they are NOT the same thing?? Your making them to be equal is deceiving you. Did you notice that you couldn't say that "foreknowledge" or "foreknow" was an "action of God" and so you slipped the word "election" into its place??

So yes, God observed that we would, in the course of time, believe and then He began laying out His plan/purpose for us which we call "predestination" or "election."

skypair

 

[J.D.]

He also saw every decision we would make and chose His response to them

How is a response predestined?

according to our foreknown obedience, God aims us toward our heavenly destiny

How is it that God aims us toward the destiny he already knows we will arrive at? Why does God have to act, as in aim, if He has already foreseen the end of us?

Don't you see that it is precisely because predestine is a action verb and foreknow is a passive verb that they are NOT the same thing?? Your making them to be equal is deceiving you.

I don't recall saying they're the same, nor making them equal in any way. I'm trying to bring about an understanding of the relationship of foreknowledge to election and predestination.

Did you notice that you couldn't say that "foreknowledge" or "foreknow" was an "action of God" and so you slipped the word "election" into its place??

I didn't play a shell game with foreknowledge and election. No, I couldn't say that foreknowledge was an action of God, because it isn't. And I agree that foreknow is a passive verb. What I'm showing is that the fact that God acts in accordance with His foreknowledge, that "foreknowledge" is not mere foresight of the events and persons of history; but rather is a perfect knowledge of His own plan for the ages, which He has determined to achieve through the means that He Himself has predestined.

 

[MB]

Hi JD;

If God looks down the corridor of time, and fore-sees who will be saved and who will not be saved, then what purpose does it serve for Him to "elect" that which he has no choice in and "predestine" that which he already knows is going to happen anyway? The Bible makes a big deal out of those things ya know - that election and predestination stuff.

The first people elected to Salvation were the Jews. There election didn't mean they would be saved because not all of them were. So why should we assume that election means we will be saved?

If man is elected after Salvation. How is it man could be chosen for Salvation when he already had it?

If man is chosen to and for Salvation then he must not have it to begin with. Where does scripture say we are chosen after salvation?

Election to Salvation happened to all men when Christ died on the cross because He chose everyone, the whole world, to die for. Jn 3:16-17, 1st Jn 2:2, 1st Tim 2:4

Predestination on the other hand it is never said when this predestination takes place. The choosing is before the foundation of the world. Why some assume that predestination is also done at the same time I don't understand.
I believe we are predestined by our Salvation. Thats obvious, our Salvation dictates our destination at the end of this life. Thats being predestined.
MB

 

[russell55]

Christ was the Lamb slain "before" (pro) the foundation of the world. Was He crucified at a point before creation...above time...in the future (to those living in the past)...or after the world was formed? I believe the answer is "yes"

What Christ being slain before the foundation of the world means is that Christ's crucifixion was set in God's plan or thought, and that plan or thought of God is the source of what comes about in time. The flow of thoughts, events, plans, things, information isn't from the line to the circle, but from the circle to the line, to use your illustration.

Sure, God is in all times and all places and, but all times and all places exist because God's mind plans them, and God's command brings them to be.

 

[Jarthur001]

I rest my case. You so vehemently suggested it ALWAYS meant before, even pulling out your english dictionary to explain to me what before meant, to further build your little man of straw.

Sorry your upset....but the fact is it means before. If the truth is a straw man...so be it.

Each time it is used it means before. Did you not read the post?

2Cr 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

fourteen years ago...is the same as saying 14 years before.

Jam 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and [your] nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

Before all things........

1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

And before all things........

Act 23:15 Now therefore ye with the council signify to the chief captain that he bring him down unto you to morrow, as though ye would enquire something more perfectly concerning him: and we, or ever he come near, are ready to kill him.

Amp...
15So now you, along with the council (Sanhedrin), give notice to the commandant to bring [Paul] down to you, as if you were going to investigate his case more accurately. But we [ourselves] are ready to slay him before he comes near.

NIV...
15Now then, you and the Sanhedrin petition the commander to bring him before you on the pretext of wanting more accurate information about his case. We are ready to kill him before he gets here."

NASB...
15"Now therefore, you and (A)the Council notify the commander to bring him down to you, as though you were going to determine his case by a more thorough investigation; and we for our part are ready to slay him before he comes near the place."

Young...
15now, therefore, ye, signify ye to the chief captain, with the sanhedrim, that to-morrow he may bring him down unto you, as being about to know more exactly the things concerning him; and we, before his coming nigh, are ready to put him to death.'

TNIV
15 Now then, you and the Sanhedrin petition the commander to bring him before you on the pretext of wanting more accurate information about his case. We are ready to kill him before he gets here."

 

[Jarthur001]

Fail to notice the quotes around "magical", James? What does that normally mean? You might want to pull out your little dictionary for another lesson...
I'm getting real tired of the way you continue to misrepresent what I am saying. You do this with eveyone who doesn't agree with your position. Please start showing a little class in your debating.

tis a joke dude....

You have to admit it was a poor choice of words. No big deal...I'll not hold you to it.

 

[skypair]

How is a response predestined?

Hey JD. It is planned beforehand. Remember, God knew that Adam would eat the fruit. He knew that Adam would need a Savior. He showed Adam that He would provide One by giving him His own covering -- the skin of an innocent animal.

How is it that God aims us toward the destiny he already knows we will arrive at? Why does God have to act, as in aim, if He has already foreseen the end of us?

You wouldn't want it any other way, bro! He knows we will be perfected by His Spirit --- He let's us decide how much or little that of that perfecting/subjection will take place in our lives! The perfecting in our lives redounds to rewards at the Bema, JD (1Cor 3)!!

I don't recall saying they're the same, nor making them equal in any way. I'm trying to bring about an understanding of the relationship of foreknowledge to election and predestination.

Well, you appeared to substitute "election" for "foreknowledge" is what I saw. Is foreknowledge active or passive??

I didn't play a shell game with foreknowledge and election.

Refer to previous anser them.

No, I couldn't say that foreknowledge was an action of God, because it isn't. And I agree that foreknow is a passive verb. What I'm showing is that the fact that God acts in accordance with His foreknowledge, that "foreknowledge" is not mere foresight of the events and persons of history;

Well, if foreknowledge is passive (mere foresight), then I think you would have to say that God's plan is developed from His foreknowledge and not vice versa. Sure, He knows His "plan for the ages" -- the 'end game' -- but the details (like who is saved) is only developed AFTER He knows who believes!

but rather is a perfect knowledge of His own plan for the ages, which He has determined to achieve through the means that He Himself has predestined.[/B]

Again, you are indicating double predestination -- He predestines what He predestines. Does God really have to "rework" His perfect plan?

JD -- if foreknowledge is passive, as we agree, how does this include making a plan or predestining anything? Why do you insist on the notion that foreknowledge is "planning for the ages?" It is foreseeing. I believe that Calvin alone makes the term take on other definitions for you, no?

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

So yes, God observed

Skypair, you have God learning what man would do in order to predestine/elect him.

God has nothing to learn. He is all knowing.

Men make choices because of God's knowledge, not the opposite.

 

[psalms109:31]

knowing

You are playing word games, to know, has nothing to do with learn with God.

Since God knows what we will do before we even do it, it has nothing to do with learning.

To learn something is to learn after they do something. Since He sees before He doesn't learn. You cannot learn something that you already know is going to happen.

Sovreignty does not mean He makes the choices for us. He places before us life and death, but it is our chioce. He knows what we will do before, but learning anythings has nothing to do with it.

He places the choice and the consequenses, which path you take is your own choice.

Believers shall be saved and non-believers condemned.

Reformation is a continue growing process. All the other teachers before us were learning as we are learning. Thier teaching is incomplete, we can continue to learn from God's word and not be stuck in the box of our for-fathers who were in a learning process too.

Maybe one day we will grow and mature to end of Pauls ministers and see that God truely wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Jarthur001]

You are playing word games, to know, has nothing to do with learn with God.

Since God knows what we will do before we even do it, it has nothing to do with learning.

To learn something is to learn after they do something. Since He sees before He doesn't learn. You cannot learn something that you already know is going to happen.

Sovreignty does not mean He makes the choices for us. He places before us life and death, but it is our chioce. He knows what we will do before, but learning anythings has nothing to do with it.

He places the choice and the consequenses, which path you take is your own choice.

Believers shall be saved and non-believers condemned.

Reformation is a continue growing process. All the other teachers before us were learning as we are learning. Thier teaching is incomplete, we can continue to learn from God's word and not be stuck in the box of our for-fathers who were in a learning process too.

That happens to be the point. To claim God must looked down time to see who will believe is a bogus idea. This belittles God. God needs not to do this, for He is God. God knows who will believe, for God elects. He choose you...to believe...not because you believe. For the life of me...i cannot see why some cannot see this.

People seem to understand it when we vote in this nation. We vote...we elect...we choose who we want in office. This is what God does. Does He not have the right to choose? He choses all the way though the Bible...and now we have people telling Him He cannot. Why try and change God? This is Gods nature.

Election is to salvation. We are chosen to believe..this is what the Bible says. God chose you....before you had a chance to believe, not based on seeing you believe.

Maybe one day we will grow and mature to end of Pauls ministers and see that God truely wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

:wavey: :wavey:

 

[psalms109:31]

scripture

2 Chronicles 16:9
For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him. You have done a foolish thing, and from now on you will be at war."

We know who the elect are, it is believers who knew who they were before even the foundation.

The reason we cannot come to your conclusion, is we know that God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

If God elected us to believe then all would believe and be saved.

We are not universalist, so we know we are saved by grace though Faith.

God wants all men to be saved, but only those who believe will be saved.

Our faith is given to us through His word, but it is still our choice to accept it or not.

I didn't make the rules, God did.

Whosoever believes shall be saved and whosoever does no will be condemned.

God has placed before us life and death, that was not our choice to do that, but God's.

We are the messenger of the Good News.