What purpose does election and predestination serve?

[Jarthur001]

Believe me, in my eyes, your responses too are unorthodox yet I take the time to answer. It's called "longsuffering" and "patience" with one another. Most of my responses were short and to the point and asked your for POV, which I am trying to understand as well. J.D. -- I'm laying a "burden" on you which must be borne by us all -- to find the truth. Calvinism appeared shortly after the Bible was accessible and it is no wonder at all that interpretation was in its infancy -- especially from one who drew from Augustine as Calvin did. Reform went beyond Catholicism in understanding. Do you not detect in scripture that there is something "beyond" Calvinism??

Please go back and try to give me the courtesy that I gave to your long-winded posts. Unorthodox doesn't mean untrue.

Also, Have you considered what Christ said about Sardis lately. "You have a name that liveth but art dead." Sardis IS the architypical Reform/Calvinist church. They DO have the name of Jesus, but since they refuse to "receive" Him (on account they can have do part in their own salvation), they are still "dead." Please come to your senses on this, J.D., or at least prove to yourself and me that you are not part of Sardis.

skypair

Oh Brothers...

 

[J.D.]

Skypair, don't be so offended. I'm just saying that I'm not good with multi-tasking. You bring up so many things that need to be addressed I get blurred vision trying to keep up with it.

I like to retain the right to be "unorthodox" myself. I think armchair theology is not necessarily a good thing, but I still participate in it myself from time to time.

My comments might have been said with a little growl, but I really didn't intend them to be offensive.

But having seen some of your posts in other forums and threads, I wish you would think twice about the books you are reading, or esle give yourself some time to digest the doctrine you're chewing up before you spit it back out.

My prayer for you and I both is that we will love the truth over whatever theological party we may belong to.

We all on BB could end every debate with doubts about each other's salvation. I have done it many times even though I haven't said so in posts. We should avoid that, because it's mostly a result of over heated rancor, not rational thought.

 

[J.D.]

Also, Skypair, if it makes you feel any better, I have a harder time dealing with Brother Bob and Webdog's posts than I do yours. But I don't think you're beyond hope yet, like THEY are.

just kidding!!!!!, BroBob and Webdog

NNE is beyond hope, not even you guys.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Also, Skypair, if it makes you feel any better, I have a harder time dealing with Brother Bob and Webdog's posts than I do yours. But I don't think you're beyond hope yet, like THEY are.

just kidding!!!!!, BroBob and Webdog

NNE is beyond hope, not even you guys.

:applause:

 

[Brother Bob]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: ........... I am shocked!

 

[webdog]

I'm not. It's hard to argue against the truth, Brother Bob

 

[J.D.]

I'm not. It's hard to argue against the truth, Brother Bob

Your posts are hard to deal with; as in, tolerate.

 

[J.D.]

And they're hard to understand, too!

 

[webdog]

...and the twisting, ripping and yanking of Scripture to support a flower is easy to understand and tolerate?

 

[reformedbeliever]

...and the twisting, ripping and yanking of Scripture to support a flower is easy to understand and tolerate?

Webdog, this is a perfect example of why you are hard to tolerate;

OK. I don't believe what Npetreley stated

If you say a theological view is wrong, but refuse to state what you believe is right, then that is hard to debate and its your responsibility to show how our view is incorrect... rather than just to say..... well thats what I believe. If you don't base your beliefs upon solid biblical truth... then its just that, a simple false belief. Now step up to the plate and go back and tell us why you believe, or exactly how you believe.... rather than just say; OK. I don't believe what Npetreley stated. Or rolling the eyes..... thats a real argument.

 

[npetreley]

Mt 10:29, Luke 12:6 -- do NOT say by God's will. You wouldn't be trying to "pull a fast one," would you? The closest either comes is Luke who says "none of them is forgotten of God." It doesn't say He determined when and how they would die.

Matthew 10:29
Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Originally Posted by skypair
Mt 10:29, Luke 12:6 -- do NOT say by God's will. You wouldn't be trying to "pull a fast one," would you? The closest either comes is Luke who says "none of them is forgotten of God." It doesn't say He determined when and how they would die.

Psalms 139:16. Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

This says that He does determine when and how they would die.

 

[npetreley]

Psalms 139:16. Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

This says that He does determine when and how they would die.

Here's another, and a very comforting passage, IMO:

Isaiah 57:1 The righteous perishes, And no man takes it to heart; Merciful men are taken away, While no one considers That the righteous is taken away from evil. 2 He shall enter into peace; They shall rest in their beds, Each one walking in his uprightness.

 

[psalms109:31]

Preordained

He has preordained the direction He wants all men to go, but doesn't take away that they can walk away from the path that leads to life to destruction.

As the scripture also says'

Isaiah 53:6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

We you do not look at just at the scripture that men wants you to see and see every word that comes from the mouth of God, then God reveals the whole truth to us.

 

[skypair]

Also, Skypair, if it makes you feel any better, I have a harder time dealing with Brother Bob and Webdog's posts than I do yours. But I don't think you're beyond hope yet, like THEY are.

just kidding!!!!!, BroBob and Webdog

NNE is beyond hope, not even you guys.

J.D. -- OK, one issue at a time laid out simple.

1) Salvation: Here's how I see it -- then you can show me what you got.

ALL are totally depraved sinners, NONE has a leg up (as in J.D.: "my friends heard the same thing and didn't believe" -- you suggesting they couldn't "hear," right?).

ALL can hear (as you admit). YOU believed intellectually, emotionally, and willfully -- your friends were lacking in one of those areas. That is -- YOU were filled with the Holy Spirit by your own will and they were not.

The Holy Spirit empowered you to repent and receive Christ (I hope) whereupon God GAVE you faith -- His indwelling Spirit -- spiritual gifts -- a body of "terrestrial glory" to "replace" the body you sacrificed to Him in Christ -- eternal life, etc.

Mind you -- YOU believed, THEN GOD gave you faith, etc.

Now, is that what happened --- or were you saved unto Calvin by simply assuming you were elect since you could/did "hear" and believe what you heard?? raying: See, there's a critical element missing in pure Calvinism and that is the act of faith that God requires, repentance and reception of His Son. Calvinists DON'T act (as in pray for/choose salvation or either they don't believe that such a prayer accomplishes anything (which the Bible would call a "prayer not believing" or "UNBELIEF!").

OK -- your turn. Go.

skypair

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

J.D. -- OK, one issue at a time laid out simple.

1) Salvation: Here's how I see it -- then you can show me what you got.

ALL are totally depraved sinners, NONE has a leg up (as in J.D.: "my friends heard the same thing and didn't believe" -- you suggesting they couldn't "hear," right?).

ALL can hear (as you admit). YOU believed intellectually, emotionally, and willfully -- your friends were lacking in one of those areas. That is -- YOU were filled with the Holy Spirit by your own will and they were not.

The Holy Spirit empowered you to repent and receive Christ (I hope) whereupon God GAVE you faith -- His indwelling Spirit -- spiritual gifts -- a body of "terrestrial glory" to "replace" the body you sacrificed to Him in Christ -- eternal life, etc.

Mind you -- YOU believed, THEN GOD gave you faith, etc.

Now, is that what happened --- or were you saved unto Calvin by simply assuming you were elect since you could/did "hear" and believe what you heard?? raying: See, there's a critical element missing in pure Calvinism and that is the act of faith that God requires, repentance and reception of His Son. Calvinists DON'T act (as in pray for/choose salvation or either they don't believe that such a prayer accomplishes anything (which the Bible would call a "prayer not believing" or "UNBELIEF!").

OK -- your turn. Go.

skypair

skypair

This again shows that you do not truly know what Calvinism is. All Calvinist claim that we repent and believe. We do not repent and believe, could not, until the Holy Spirit gives us a nature to where we can.

 

[webdog]

Webdog, this is a perfect example of why you are hard to tolerate;



If you say a theological view is wrong, but refuse to state what you believe is right, then that is hard to debate and its your responsibility to show how our view is incorrect... rather than just to say..... well thats what I believe. If you don't base your beliefs upon solid biblical truth... then its just that, a simple false belief. Now step up to the plate and go back and tell us why you believe, or exactly how you believe.... rather than just say; OK. I don't believe what Npetreley stated. Or rolling the eyes..... thats a real argument.

You should know what I believe by now...hopefully, unless God has "hardened" and "blinded" you to understanding what I believe. You see the little smile after what I posted? Ususally means to be taken lightheartedly.