What Should Christians Believe about the Causes of Demon Possession?

[Ben1445]

It’s better to not walk in the counsel of the ungodly, or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of the scornful.

If people submit themselves to God, they will not need to be concerned with the devil. God in us is greater. This is what a Christian needs to know.

 

[Ben1445]

In the first instance, the difference is that I would know and believe that drug cartels exist.

And you also believe in demons. Clearly the illustration doesn’t apply to you. But it does apply to other people.

Concerning those who do not believe that demons exist, they do knowingly and willingly involve themselves in those activities, but they do not, however, thereby knowingly and willingly give demons permission to possess them because they do not believe that the demons even exist.

Ask and it shall be given. Seek and ye shall find. Knock and it shall be open to you.

Now what are you asking for or seeking for? What are you knocking on?
People will play pandora and wonder why they get stung. When Pandora opened the box, she did not know what was in it or want what was in it but that didn’t stop her from getting involved.

What's more, consider that people can drink poisonous liquids and be poisoned without any knowledge that they were drinking a poisonous liquid. People can completely unknowingly intake hallucinogenic substances and suffer horrible consequences, but it would not be true that they knowingly did so.

Those are not demons. That is just part of life in this world as a human being. We all sin. We all die of something.

 

[Ascetic X]

It’s better to not walk in the counsel of the ungodly, or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of the scornful.

If people submit themselves to God, they will not need to be concerned with the devil. God in us is greater. This is what a Christian needs to know.

I agree. We do not need to morbidly ponder and debate about how people get possessed. The scriptures do not explain all the details, it just states that certain individuals had evil spirits inside them.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

And you also believe in demons. Clearly the illustration doesn’t apply to you. But it does apply to other people.


Ask and it shall be given. Seek and ye shall find. Knock and it shall be open to you.

Now what are you asking for or seeking for? What are you knocking on?
People will play pandora and wonder why they get stung. When Pandora opened the box, she did not know what was in it or want what was in it but that didn’t stop her from getting involved.

Those are not demons. That is just part of life in this world as a human being. We all sin. We all die of something.

Yes, I do believe in demons.

Multitudes of other Christians also believe in demons, but they deny that certain things can cause demon possession. Because the Bible does not seem to reveal anything specific about what has caused people to be possessed and about what cannot cause possession, there is no biblical basis therefore to claim that such and such that the Bible does not talk about cannot and does not cause possession.

 

[Ben1445]

Yes, I do believe in demons.

Multitudes of other Christians also believe in demons, but they deny that certain things can cause demon possession. Because the Bible does not seem to reveal anything specific about what has caused people to be possessed, there is no biblical basis therefore to claim that such and such that the Bible does not talk about cannot and does not cause possession.

In like fashion, you have yet to show anything that shows that people are taken possession of by devils against their will without having put themselves into the position that they are in. This is why people talk about opening themselves up to demons.
And why should it be surprising that Africa, Asia and even South American countries who have a heavy presence of witchcraft also have higher levels of demonic activity. If and as more civilized countries get further into occult practices, they will also suffer from the same problems. But the point is that they have saturated themselves with the occult and will be confronted by it more often.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

In like fashion, you have yet to show anything that shows that people are taken possession of by devils against their will without having put themselves into the position that they are in. This is why people talk about opening themselves up to demons.

How is this a right response to the things that I have been saying? Are you saying that even when people through their sinfulness have put themselves in a position to be possessed, they still even then have a choice of whether they are going to be possessed or not even though they have sinfully put themselves in that position of possibly being possessed?

More importantly, you do not account for the sinfulness of other people who trap people against their will into situations that they did not choose to be in. For example, if someone slips a psychedelic substance into someone's drink that causes them to hallucinate and puts them into a state that they did not in any way choose to be in and as a result the person becomes possessed, it is untenable to say that the person still was willing to be possessed and knowingly was possessed.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Let's consider some parallels. Suppose a 2-year-old child is kidnapped because of a lapse in parental inattention in a public place and then trafficked by human traffickers. The child is now being held captive against his will. The child did not choose to be in that state. The child did not give permission to be in that state. The child did not knowingly give permission to be in that state of captivity.

Similarly, idolatrous parents teach their child who is only 2 years old and does not know anything about demons to offer a sacrifice to an idol and then eat as part of their worship some of what was offered to the idol. As a result, the child becomes possessed. Claiming that the child knowingly and willingly gave the demon permission to possess him would be false.

 

[Ben1445]

How is this a right response to the things that I have been saying? Are you saying that even when people through their sinfulness have put themselves in a position to be possessed, they still even then have a choice of whether they are going to be possessed or not even though they have sinfully put themselves in that position of possibly being possessed?

I have not been saying that.

But I am not ready to say that we both have the same idea of what it means to put themselves in a position to be possessed.

More importantly, you do not account for the sinfulness of other people who trap people against their will into situations that they did not choose to be in. For example, if someone slips a psychedelic substance into someone's drink that causes them to hallucinate and puts them into a state that they did not in any way choose to be in and as a result the person becomes possessed, it is untenable to say that the person still was willing to be possessed and knowingly was possessed.

Drugs are gateways not demons. They may still not touch what God does not allow them to.
But tell me why you are in a place where people would do that kind of thing?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I have not been saying that.

But I am not ready to say that we both have the same idea of what it means to put themselves in a position to be possessed.



Drugs are gateways not demons. They may still not touch what God does not allow them to.
But tell me why you are in a place where people would do that kind of thing?

Why do you keep trying to personalize this to me as if I am personally involved in such things?

The thread is about establishing sound doctrine about what is and is not true about demon possession. Discussing that subject at length does not mean that I am "in a place where people would do that kind of thing."

Furthermore, you keep insisting that demon possession can only happen where there is knowing, willing permission given by the person who is possessed, yet you do not offer any Bible to support your view. How do you know that it is true that demon possession can only happen if a person knowingly, willingly gives permission to be possessed? Where does God say that is true? Why is it so important for you to believe that is true?

In addition, I know from first-hand experience from my years prior to my salvation that there are idolatrous parents who teach their young children to pray prayers to and offer certain things to idols. They also teach their children to eat certain things that have been offered to an idol and to do so as part of their veneration of the idol.

Holding that even in such circumstances, very young children with no understanding at all about demons can only be possessed if they knowingly and willingly give permission to the demon as a demon is untenable and has no biblical basis.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Drugs are gateways not demons. They may still not touch what God does not allow them to.

I did not say that drugs are demons. How do you know that God does not allow people to be "touched" by demons through the wickedness of others?

Similarly, very small children have been trafficked by the thousands by wicked people. Did God not allow them to be "touched" against their will and sold into captivity by unspeakably evil people?

 

[Ben1445]

Why do you keep trying to personalize this to me as if I am personally involved in such things?

The thread is about establishing sound doctrine about what is and is not true about demon possession. Discussing that subject at length does not mean that I am "in a place where people would do that kind of thing."

You may be used generally and often is. I’m sorry to have offended you.

Furthermore, you keep insisting that demon possession can only happen where there is knowing, willing permission given by the person who is possessed, yet you do not offer any Bible to support your view. How do you know that it is true that demon possession can only happen if a person knowingly, willingly gives permission to be possessed? Where does God say that is true? Why is it so important for you to believe that is true?

You have provided Scripture several times, in which I have expanded the reading to provide context and show that there is personal responsibility in demon possession.
Please go back and read my posts.
I also have spoken about biblical examples without quoting any particular verses. These are not only my opinions.

On the other hand, you have provided what I have continued to say, is inadequate evidence for your claims. So we we are even on that one by comparison of perspectives.

I will keep having the discussion with you and as you find Scripture, I am happy to look at it.
But I would ask that you be a bit less sensitive, and not accuse me of not using Scripture.

In addition, I know from first-hand experience from my years prior to my salvation that there are idolatrous parents who teach their young children to pray prayers to and offer certain things to idols. They also teach their children to eat certain things that have been offered to an idol and to do so as part of their veneration of the idol.

And the child does do the thing. That makes them knowingly and willingly doing things that open themselves up to demon possession.

Holding that even in such circumstances, very young children with no understanding at all about demons can only be possessed if they knowingly and willingly give permission to the demon as a demon is untenable and has no biblical basis.

From your own example, they are not just normal people living normal lives. They, as a family are asking for demons to come to them. Why should anyone be surprised if they do?
But just because children were taught to do it doesn’t make them innocent.
I have also said several times in different words, that it is not necessary that anyone know what they are getting into.

You (there I go again. Please don’t take it personally) may not get on a roller coaster and say, I don’t consent to this turn, or loop, or drop. Steps were taken that put you on the roller coaster and now you don’t have control anymore. If it goes off the rails there is nothing you can do to change your own position. You will go where it takes you without knowingly and willingly deciding to go off the rails. But you submitted yourself to the roller coaster knowingly and willingly.

 

[Ben1445]

I did not say that drugs are demons. How do you know that God does not allow people to be "touched" by demons through the wickedness of others?

Similarly, very small children have been trafficked by the thousands by wicked people. Did God not allow them to be "touched" against their will and sold into captivity by unspeakably evil people?

I have already said that they may be. If you will remember, I have already used Job as an example.

It might be helpful for this discussion if you would go back and read what I have actually said and do it in less of a combative manner.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

And the child does do the thing. That makes them knowingly and willingly doing things that open themselves up to demon possession.

From your own example, they are not just normal people living normal lives. They, as a family are asking for demons to come to them. Why should anyone be surprised if they do?
But just because children were taught to do it doesn’t make them innocent.
I have also said several times in different words, that it is not necessary that anyone know what they are getting into.

You (there I go again. Please don’t take it personally) may not get on a roller coaster and say, I don’t consent to this turn, or loop, or drop. Steps were taken that put you on the roller coaster and now you don’t have control anymore. If it goes off the rails there is nothing you can do to change your own position. You will go where it takes you without knowingly and willingly deciding to go off the rails. But you submitted yourself to the roller coaster knowingly and willingly.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

All unbelievers are under the power of Satan. This reality is not something that they consent to, give permission to, or even know anything about, but it is still true.

All unbelievers, however, are not demon-possessed. The key question is whether those that have been or are possessed had to consent to their being possessed.

Especially because Scripture reveals that children have been possessed, I do not accept the view that everyone who has been possessed had to have given permission to be possessed in the sense of actual conversation with a demon, prayer to a demon, etc. that a demon would possess the person.

As I see it, engaging in an evil activity and consequently being possessed is not automatically the same thing as specifically praying to or asking a demon to possess you. The latter is what I see is what should be considered as giving permission to be possessed.

 

[Ben1445]

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

All unbelievers are under the power of Satan. This reality is not something that they consent to, give permission to, or even know anything about, but it is still true.

All unbelievers, however, are not demon-possessed. The key question is whether those that have been or are possessed had to consent to their being possessed.

Especially because Scripture reveals that children have been possessed,

This has no bearing on it unless you can show that the children were unable to knowingly sin.

I do not accept the view that everyone who has been possessed had to have given permission to be possessed in the sense of actual conversation with a demon, prayer to a demon, etc. that a demon would possess the person.

I have never said that either.

As I see it, engaging in an evil activity and consequently being possessed is not automatically the same thing as specifically praying to or asking a demon to possess you. The latter is what I see is what should be considered as giving permission to be possessed.

You have been misunderstanding what I mean when I say permission.
I doubt that there are many who are asking for demons to possess them. Most people like freedom and don’t actually want to be under the control of anyone else. That doesn’t mean they specifically requested it.
Someone who gets a punch in the face is often described as having “asked for it.” It doesn’t mean they said “please punch me in the nose.”

 

[Ben1445]

engaging in an evil activity and consequently being possessed

You and I appear to have disagreement at this intersection.
For me, engaging in an evil activity is granting permission.

Can two walk together except they be agreed?
If you are in the way of evil, that is your activities are evil, you are consenting to it.

But engaging in evil activities is not an automatic demon possession either.


Children disobey their parents all the time to do wrong. It is not a forgone conclusion that they can only disobey to do wrong. They may also obey God rather than men. And the basis for their disobedience to men and obedience to God would be the law written in their hearts.