What Should Christians Believe about the Causes of Demon Possession?

[Ben1445]

It’s better to not walk in the counsel of the ungodly, or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of the scornful.

If people submit themselves to God, they will not need to be concerned with the devil. God in us is greater. This is what a Christian needs to know.

 

[Ben1445]

In the first instance, the difference is that I would know and believe that drug cartels exist.

And you also believe in demons. Clearly the illustration doesn’t apply to you. But it does apply to other people.

Concerning those who do not believe that demons exist, they do knowingly and willingly involve themselves in those activities, but they do not, however, thereby knowingly and willingly give demons permission to possess them because they do not believe that the demons even exist.

Ask and it shall be given. Seek and ye shall find. Knock and it shall be open to you.

Now what are you asking for or seeking for? What are you knocking on?
People will play pandora and wonder why they get stung. When Pandora opened the box, she did not know what was in it or want what was in it but that didn’t stop her from getting involved.

What's more, consider that people can drink poisonous liquids and be poisoned without any knowledge that they were drinking a poisonous liquid. People can completely unknowingly intake hallucinogenic substances and suffer horrible consequences, but it would not be true that they knowingly did so.

Those are not demons. That is just part of life in this world as a human being. We all sin. We all die of something.

 

[Ascetic X]

It’s better to not walk in the counsel of the ungodly, or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of the scornful.

If people submit themselves to God, they will not need to be concerned with the devil. God in us is greater. This is what a Christian needs to know.

I agree. We do not need to morbidly ponder and debate about how people get possessed. The scriptures do not explain all the details, it just states that certain individuals had evil spirits inside them.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

And you also believe in demons. Clearly the illustration doesn’t apply to you. But it does apply to other people.


Ask and it shall be given. Seek and ye shall find. Knock and it shall be open to you.

Now what are you asking for or seeking for? What are you knocking on?
People will play pandora and wonder why they get stung. When Pandora opened the box, she did not know what was in it or want what was in it but that didn’t stop her from getting involved.

Those are not demons. That is just part of life in this world as a human being. We all sin. We all die of something.

Yes, I do believe in demons.

Multitudes of other Christians also believe in demons, but they deny that certain things can cause demon possession. Because the Bible does not seem to reveal anything specific about what has caused people to be possessed and about what cannot cause possession, there is no biblical basis therefore to claim that such and such that the Bible does not talk about cannot and does not cause possession.

 

[Ben1445]

Yes, I do believe in demons.

Multitudes of other Christians also believe in demons, but they deny that certain things can cause demon possession. Because the Bible does not seem to reveal anything specific about what has caused people to be possessed, there is no biblical basis therefore to claim that such and such that the Bible does not talk about cannot and does not cause possession.

In like fashion, you have yet to show anything that shows that people are taken possession of by devils against their will without having put themselves into the position that they are in. This is why people talk about opening themselves up to demons.
And why should it be surprising that Africa, Asia and even South American countries who have a heavy presence of witchcraft also have higher levels of demonic activity. If and as more civilized countries get further into occult practices, they will also suffer from the same problems. But the point is that they have saturated themselves with the occult and will be confronted by it more often.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

In like fashion, you have yet to show anything that shows that people are taken possession of by devils against their will without having put themselves into the position that they are in. This is why people talk about opening themselves up to demons.

How is this a right response to the things that I have been saying? Are you saying that even when people through their sinfulness have put themselves in a position to be possessed, they still even then have a choice of whether they are going to be possessed or not even though they have sinfully put themselves in that position of possibly being possessed?

More importantly, you do not account for the sinfulness of other people who trap people against their will into situations that they did not choose to be in. For example, if someone slips a psychedelic substance into someone's drink that causes them to hallucinate and puts them into a state that they did not in any way choose to be in and as a result the person becomes possessed, it is untenable to say that the person still was willing to be possessed and knowingly was possessed.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Let's consider some parallels. Suppose a 2-year-old child is kidnapped because of a lapse in parental inattention in a public place and then trafficked by human traffickers. The child is now being held captive against his will. The child did not choose to be in that state. The child did not give permission to be in that state. The child did not knowingly give permission to be in that state of captivity.

Similarly, idolatrous parents teach their child who is only 2 years old and does not know anything about demons to offer a sacrifice to an idol and then eat as part of their worship some of what was offered to the idol. As a result, the child becomes possessed. Claiming that the child knowingly and willingly gave the demon permission to possess him would be false.

 

[Ben1445]

How is this a right response to the things that I have been saying? Are you saying that even when people through their sinfulness have put themselves in a position to be possessed, they still even then have a choice of whether they are going to be possessed or not even though they have sinfully put themselves in that position of possibly being possessed?

I have not been saying that.

But I am not ready to say that we both have the same idea of what it means to put themselves in a position to be possessed.

More importantly, you do not account for the sinfulness of other people who trap people against their will into situations that they did not choose to be in. For example, if someone slips a psychedelic substance into someone's drink that causes them to hallucinate and puts them into a state that they did not in any way choose to be in and as a result the person becomes possessed, it is untenable to say that the person still was willing to be possessed and knowingly was possessed.

Drugs are gateways not demons. They may still not touch what God does not allow them to.
But tell me why you are in a place where people would do that kind of thing?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I have not been saying that.

But I am not ready to say that we both have the same idea of what it means to put themselves in a position to be possessed.



Drugs are gateways not demons. They may still not touch what God does not allow them to.
But tell me why you are in a place where people would do that kind of thing?

Why do you keep trying to personalize this to me as if I am personally involved in such things?

The thread is about establishing sound doctrine about what is and is not true about demon possession. Discussing that subject at length does not mean that I am "in a place where people would do that kind of thing."

Furthermore, you keep insisting that demon possession can only happen where there is knowing, willing permission given by the person who is possessed, yet you do not offer any Bible to support your view. How do you know that it is true that demon possession can only happen if a person knowingly, willingly gives permission to be possessed? Where does God say that is true? Why is it so important for you to believe that is true?

In addition, I know from first-hand experience from my years prior to my salvation that there are idolatrous parents who teach their young children to pray prayers to and offer certain things to idols. They also teach their children to eat certain things that have been offered to an idol and to do so as part of their veneration of the idol.

Holding that even in such circumstances, very young children with no understanding at all about demons can only be possessed if they knowingly and willingly give permission to the demon as a demon is untenable and has no biblical basis.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Drugs are gateways not demons. They may still not touch what God does not allow them to.

I did not say that drugs are demons. How do you know that God does not allow people to be "touched" by demons through the wickedness of others?

Similarly, very small children have been trafficked by the thousands by wicked people. Did God not allow them to be "touched" against their will and sold into captivity by unspeakably evil people?

 

[Ben1445]

Why do you keep trying to personalize this to me as if I am personally involved in such things?

The thread is about establishing sound doctrine about what is and is not true about demon possession. Discussing that subject at length does not mean that I am "in a place where people would do that kind of thing."

You may be used generally and often is. I’m sorry to have offended you.

Furthermore, you keep insisting that demon possession can only happen where there is knowing, willing permission given by the person who is possessed, yet you do not offer any Bible to support your view. How do you know that it is true that demon possession can only happen if a person knowingly, willingly gives permission to be possessed? Where does God say that is true? Why is it so important for you to believe that is true?

You have provided Scripture several times, in which I have expanded the reading to provide context and show that there is personal responsibility in demon possession.
Please go back and read my posts.
I also have spoken about biblical examples without quoting any particular verses. These are not only my opinions.

On the other hand, you have provided what I have continued to say, is inadequate evidence for your claims. So we we are even on that one by comparison of perspectives.

I will keep having the discussion with you and as you find Scripture, I am happy to look at it.
But I would ask that you be a bit less sensitive, and not accuse me of not using Scripture.

In addition, I know from first-hand experience from my years prior to my salvation that there are idolatrous parents who teach their young children to pray prayers to and offer certain things to idols. They also teach their children to eat certain things that have been offered to an idol and to do so as part of their veneration of the idol.

And the child does do the thing. That makes them knowingly and willingly doing things that open themselves up to demon possession.

Holding that even in such circumstances, very young children with no understanding at all about demons can only be possessed if they knowingly and willingly give permission to the demon as a demon is untenable and has no biblical basis.

From your own example, they are not just normal people living normal lives. They, as a family are asking for demons to come to them. Why should anyone be surprised if they do?
But just because children were taught to do it doesn’t make them innocent.
I have also said several times in different words, that it is not necessary that anyone know what they are getting into.

You (there I go again. Please don’t take it personally) may not get on a roller coaster and say, I don’t consent to this turn, or loop, or drop. Steps were taken that put you on the roller coaster and now you don’t have control anymore. If it goes off the rails there is nothing you can do to change your own position. You will go where it takes you without knowingly and willingly deciding to go off the rails. But you submitted yourself to the roller coaster knowingly and willingly.

 

[Ben1445]

I did not say that drugs are demons. How do you know that God does not allow people to be "touched" by demons through the wickedness of others?

Similarly, very small children have been trafficked by the thousands by wicked people. Did God not allow them to be "touched" against their will and sold into captivity by unspeakably evil people?

I have already said that they may be. If you will remember, I have already used Job as an example.

It might be helpful for this discussion if you would go back and read what I have actually said and do it in less of a combative manner.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

And the child does do the thing. That makes them knowingly and willingly doing things that open themselves up to demon possession.

From your own example, they are not just normal people living normal lives. They, as a family are asking for demons to come to them. Why should anyone be surprised if they do?
But just because children were taught to do it doesn’t make them innocent.
I have also said several times in different words, that it is not necessary that anyone know what they are getting into.

You (there I go again. Please don’t take it personally) may not get on a roller coaster and say, I don’t consent to this turn, or loop, or drop. Steps were taken that put you on the roller coaster and now you don’t have control anymore. If it goes off the rails there is nothing you can do to change your own position. You will go where it takes you without knowingly and willingly deciding to go off the rails. But you submitted yourself to the roller coaster knowingly and willingly.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

All unbelievers are under the power of Satan. This reality is not something that they consent to, give permission to, or even know anything about, but it is still true.

All unbelievers, however, are not demon-possessed. The key question is whether those that have been or are possessed had to consent to their being possessed.

Especially because Scripture reveals that children have been possessed, I do not accept the view that everyone who has been possessed had to have given permission to be possessed in the sense of actual conversation with a demon, prayer to a demon, etc. that a demon would possess the person.

As I see it, engaging in an evil activity and consequently being possessed is not automatically the same thing as specifically praying to or asking a demon to possess you. The latter is what I see is what should be considered as giving permission to be possessed.

 

[Ben1445]

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

All unbelievers are under the power of Satan. This reality is not something that they consent to, give permission to, or even know anything about, but it is still true.

All unbelievers, however, are not demon-possessed. The key question is whether those that have been or are possessed had to consent to their being possessed.

Especially because Scripture reveals that children have been possessed,

This has no bearing on it unless you can show that the children were unable to knowingly sin.

I do not accept the view that everyone who has been possessed had to have given permission to be possessed in the sense of actual conversation with a demon, prayer to a demon, etc. that a demon would possess the person.

I have never said that either.

As I see it, engaging in an evil activity and consequently being possessed is not automatically the same thing as specifically praying to or asking a demon to possess you. The latter is what I see is what should be considered as giving permission to be possessed.

You have been misunderstanding what I mean when I say permission.
I doubt that there are many who are asking for demons to possess them. Most people like freedom and don’t actually want to be under the control of anyone else. That doesn’t mean they specifically requested it.
Someone who gets a punch in the face is often described as having “asked for it.” It doesn’t mean they said “please punch me in the nose.”

 

[Ben1445]

engaging in an evil activity and consequently being possessed

You and I appear to have disagreement at this intersection.
For me, engaging in an evil activity is granting permission.

Can two walk together except they be agreed?
If you are in the way of evil, that is your activities are evil, you are consenting to it.

But engaging in evil activities is not an automatic demon possession either.


Children disobey their parents all the time to do wrong. It is not a forgone conclusion that they can only disobey to do wrong. They may also obey God rather than men. And the basis for their disobedience to men and obedience to God would be the law written in their hearts.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You have been misunderstanding what I mean when I say permission.
I doubt that there are many who are asking for demons to possess them. Most people like freedom and don’t actually want to be under the control of anyone else. That doesn’t mean they specifically requested it.
Someone who gets a punch in the face is often described as having “asked for it.” It doesn’t mean they said “please punch me in the nose.”

There are people who are involved in occult practices all over the world that are occult practices that have contact with spirits and possession by the spirits as their stated goals (shamanism, Vodún, Santería, Candomblé, etc.) The people who engage in these activities intentionally do what they do because they want to have spirits come and possess them.

Because the Bible does not speak specifically of any practices where the stated goal is possession, should we hold that all of these activities are fake occult activities that do not and cannot bring about demon possession?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You and I appear to have disagreement at this intersection.
For me, engaging in an evil activity is granting permission.

Can two walk together except they be agreed?
If you are in the way of evil, that is your activities are evil, you are consenting to it.

But engaging in evil activities is not an automatic demon possession either.

Because "engaging in evil activities is not an automatic demon possession," why are some possessed but the rest are not?

 

[sojourner4Christ]

From the OP:

The NT indisputably and emphatically reveals the reality of demon possession. Concerning those people who were demon possessed, one of two things had to have been true: (1) They were born demon possessed or (2) they became demon possessed at some later point in their lives.

The NT does not seem to provide any definitive information to establish that any people were born demon possessed. Taking that they were possessed at some later point in their lives, what caused them to become possessed?

Most folks don't really want the truth; they want the easy answer or they simply want to debate. And so, as a deliverance minister, I am hesitant to post on this topic. Yet the need is very great and hope springs eternal. I've read this thread thoroughly, and many honest questions have been raised.

The first misunderstanding that needs to be cleared up is the misunderstanding surrounding the word possession in relation to the question of "Can a believer have a devil/demon within his body?"

The "possession vs. obsession" argument often heard is a red herring. I am renting a place, i.e. I am in possession of that unit, but I do NOT own it. Same with devils dwelling within the flesh of a believer. The word actually means a beachhead set up within enemy territory i.e. the believer is the enemy, and a beachhead is what the devil sets up in the believer's flesh. It is a stronghold. The unclean spirit does not OWN the believer, but the believer is oppressed by the unclean spirit.

What saith scripture?

In order to arrive at a clear definition, one must first deal with the key word and then the key expression.

The Key Word

The key word is daimonizomai, which means, "to be demonized." It means, "to be controlled by a demon from within." This is the word that is frequently translated as "possessed by a demon." The problem with this definition is that the Greek word for "possession" is never used in conjunction with demons. What is found is always daimonizomai or "to be controlled by a demon from within." Rather than defining or translating the term as "demon possession," which for many people implies ownership by a demon, for clarity we can simply use "demonic control." This key word is found in the Greek text of Mat. 4:24; 8:16, 28, 33; 9:32; 12:22; 15:22; Mark 1:32; 5:15-16, 18; Luke 8:36; John 10:21.

The Key Expression

The key expression that means the same thing as the word daimonizomai, though the word itself is not used, is "to have a demon." The key expression emphasizes residency. The emphasis of the key word is on control, but the emphasis of the key expression is on residency in that with demonic control the demon is residing within that person. This key expression is found in Mat. 11:18; Luke 7:33; John 7:20; 8:48; 10:20; Acts 8:7; 16:16.

The Definition

By combining the key word and the key expression, a specific definition can be derived. By way of definition, demonic control involves a demon residing in a person and exercising direct control over that person with a certain degree of derangement of the mind or physical upset of the body. This definition takes into account the key word, the key expression, and the results. Again, demonic control involves: a demon residing in a person, emphasizing the key expression; exercising direct control over that person, emphasizing the key word; resulting in a certain degree of derangement of the mind or body, which is the result of a demon residing in a person and exercising direct control.

A good example of this in practice is Mat. 12:43-45, which discusses the demon's place and emphasizes both the key word and the key phrase. In Mark 5:1-20, there is an example of the result of demonic control, both in the physical and mental aspects.

The Distinctions

To get a clearer picture of what is meant by demonic control, a distinction needs to be made between demonic control and two other types of demonic activities.

a. Demonic Harassment

One type of demonic activity is demonic harassment, where a demon harasses a person from without. An example of this is found in 1 Thes. 2:18, which speaks of Satan hindering the plans of a believer. This is demonic harassment, when demons hinder the work of a believer.

b. Demonic Influence

A second type of demonic activity that must not be confused with demonic control is that of demonic influence. An example of this is Mat. 16:21-23. After Jesus made the statement that he was going to die, Peter said that no such thing would come upon him. Then Jesus turned around and, facing Peter, he said: Get thee behind me, Satan. Obviously, Satan was trying to keep Jesus from the cross. At that point, Peter had been influenced by Satan to try to dissuade Jesus from going to the cross. Peter was under demonic influence.

Demonic control should be distinguished from both demonic harassment and demonic influence. Demonic harassment and demonic influence are activities outside the person, but demonic control takes place inside the person.

Can a believer be demonized?

Can a demon control a believer? Normally, this question is phrased, "Can a believer be possessed by a demon?" As I pointed out earlier, the word "possession" is what is causing the misunderstanding. If by possession one means "ownership," then the answer is "No! A believer can never be possessed by a demon in the sense of ownership." According to 1 Cor. 6:20, the believer has been purchased by the Messiah, he is owned by the Messiah, and he can never be owned by Satan; he can only be owned by the Messiah. But the biblical usage is "control from within." If the question is rephrased as, "Can a believer be controlled by a demon from within?", then the answer is, "Yes, he can." There are two passages that make this clear.

First is Acts 5:1-4, the case of Ananias and Sapphira. Peter asked: Why has Satan filled your heart? using the same Greek word that Paul used in Eph 5:18, when he spoke of being filled with the Spirit. Just as to be filled with the Spirit means to be controlled by the Holy Spirit, so to be "filled with Satan" means to be controlled by Satan. The Holy Spirit controls from within and so, then, must Satan, since the same Greek word is used. The Bible does teach that a believer can be controlled by a demon from within.

A second passage is Eph. 4:27, where Paul wrote: Do not give place to the devil. Paul used a Greek word that means "beachhead." When an army attacks, it first sends in soldiers to control a beachhead. This beachhead is inside enemy territory. Once that is done, the reinforcements can come in while those in the beachhead give cover fire. A beachhead is an area of control within enemy territory. A believer can be controlled through a beachhead within, so a believer can be controlled by a demon.

The distinction between believers and unbelievers is not that a believer cannot be controlled and an unbeliever can be controlled. Rather, the difference is a matter of the extent of the control. An unbeliever can be totally controlled, but a believer can only be partially controlled, never totally controlled.

Again, the common objection has been: "How can a demon reside in the same body with the Holy Spirit?" Most believers realize that they still have a sin-nature. The Holy Spirit coexists with the sin-nature of the believer, both of which are within. The point is that the believer has two natures. The Holy Spirit resides in the new nature, not in the old sin-nature. The demon resides not in the new nature, but in the old sin-nature. The fact that there are two natures coexisting within the believer shows why both a demon and the Holy Spirit can coexist within the believer; they reside in two different natures.

The proper way of handling sin in the believer's life is the way of Romans 6: we must recognize that both our sin-nature and old man were crucified with Christ the moment we believed, thus breaking the bondage to sin. Now, we must make the decision not to let our bodies be used as instruments for sin. That is the New Testament pattern and the one we should follow.

One last thing by way of definition is that demonic control can be repeated (Mat. 12:43-45; Luke 11:24-26).

 

[sojourner4Christ]

And on to the most recent post:

Because "engaging in evil activities is not an automatic demon possession," why are some possessed but the rest are not?

For example, we have all heard the factoid that a child from a family of an alcoholic is 20 times more likely to become an alcoholic himself. That would be the spirit of drunkenness that has come down the family line (aka a generational/familial spirit).

Perhaps those in authority over you, usually your parents, allowed that spirit into your home. They did not stand in the gap and stop that spirit, to deny it access and thereby close the gateway. Whether it came from the unconfessed sins of your parents or from longer back in your generational line, doesn't matter. Until someone steps in and closes the door to that devil's legal right to be there, it will remain and will torment the innocent ones down the family line. And it PREFERS to remain in your generational line, because it knows a lot about your parents, your grandparents, your great grandparents, etc. It knows a LOT about how you spend your fun hour.

Also, devils can be ritualistically "installed" into a baby who is yet in its mother's womb via "moon rituals," etc. In fact, satanic groups often have "breeders," women whose job consists of bringing a baby into the world solely as a sacrifice to Satan. The more blasphemous the act, the more powerful devils that can be summoned and their power appropriated. Recall the recent revelations concerning child trafficking and cannibalizing; such is treated as currency by its perpetrators.

Finally, chronic, unconfessed sin usually opens a gateway for a devil to enter, although frequency of the sin is not necessarily a metric. IOW, a devil may enter at the first commission of a sin.

 

[Ben1445]

Because "engaging in evil activities is not an automatic demon possession," why are some possessed but the rest are not?

I’ll tell you again that sin is an evil activity and not all sin brings a person to the same level of complicity in demonic activity.
That is to say that there are some who have not transgressed after the similitude of Adam.
But you don’t agree with me. That is fine. This is not essential doctrine.