We believe that there will be many saved.
We believe the gospel and grace can be rejected. We believe it will only be applied to the elect.
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What theology "name" to those who deny God needs To "Grace" those saved?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
Jesus said only few will be saved.
Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Then why do you call it "irresistable grace"?
quantumfaith
Active Member
Winman, to be fair, not all "reformers" refer to "irresistible grace". It is only "irresistible" for the elect, all others most certainly resist it, even more, they reject it.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I just mean a relative few...compared to those who perish.
Not in the way I explained. How can they really reject something they weren't granted the ability to hear, see, understand and accept?
Actually, whenever you read any statement from a Calvinist, you will see they qualify it with a contradiction. JBH said the gospel and grace can be rejected, but it is only applied to the elect. That is a contradiction, as the elect by definition are those who do not reject it.
And if the gospel and grace are not applied to the unelect, it cannot be said to be irresistable, as you cannot resist (or accept) what was never offered you.
These are all cleverly designed arguments
that appear true, but in reality say nothing whatsoever.
Last edited by a moderator:
Actually Romans 5:19 says many will be. "so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."
Well, I didn't make the term. It's "irresistible" only for the elect and only at a particular time. The non elect will always resist and even the elect will resist up to a time. All those that are chosen by God will come to him. So that's why. I think it was just trying to fine something to fit in the name of tupil. I believe this term and limited atonement are terrible terms. But, we have to remember to look at the definition and not just the title. aka don't judge a book by its cover; don't judge a doctrine by its title.
That's how you reject it. You don't want it. You have no desire for it. It's foolish to you. (my you is general and not about you btw)
Where is the contradiction. And the elect will reject up to a time.
both the non elect and the elect resist. The elect will not always resist but will accept in time.
that's what I am referring to by "many".
It would seem that is what JF is looking to describe. Those who come to Christ/God without grace, in and of themselves. That is the heart or essence of Pel and semi-pel view.
convicted1
Guest
Like Bro. TCGreek said, I think you are looking for the "Pel" or "Semi-Pel" theology, I guess.
Man does not have the faculties to come to God on his own. First, he needs to be called by God(you can't answer the phone before it rings), and then, and only then, can you approach Him. When God calls, He gives us faith to believe. Its only those who put their faith to use(by praying, seeking, reading, listening to God-filled sermons), that are saved. IOW, just because God gives someone the ability to believe(give him/her faith), does not mean they will put it to good use. When God calls someone, if they heed to His calling, it will cause a Godly sorrow to be placed in their life(2 Cor. 7:10), and this will lead them down a road of repentance, and then to the foot of the Throne, and then salvation.
But man can not and will not save himself. This comes solely from God. It is by His Grace that anyone is saved, it is by His Grace that we live, move and have our being. It is by His Grace that we will make it home, when He calls our name the last time.
Who here has EVER said that? Have I ever said that a man can believe or come to Christ without God's grace?
I have said dozens of times that if God did not reveal himself and his Son Jesus to us through his word, it would be utterly impossible for man to believe on Christ. And this is exactly what Paul implied in Romans 10:14 when he asked, "and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?"
Who are these people that are saying man can come to God of himself without God's grace? I would like to see where anyone here has ever said that.
No, this is a false accusation that Cals KNOWINGLY throw around.
Again, why call it irresistable? Calvinists themselves came up with this term.
Maybe they should have called it Temporarily Resistable for the Elect Only and Permanently Resisistable fo the Unelect Only Grace?
FIRST.. take a breath and calm down and stop over-reacting.
SECOND.. Since you didn't say anything about God NOT giving grace.. then it isn't and wasn't referring to you or your thoughts.
THIRD.. My statement goes back to the OP which was asking what are these people called who do not believe God's grace is not needed in order to be saved (paraphrased). This view is specifically known as Pelegianism and/or Semi-Pelegianism
FOURTH.. I'm not a Calvinist
believe some made a distinction between God giving to manking "common benefits" as a result of the death of Jesus, there there was some temporally benefits to all from jesus death and His merits, but that spiritual blessings/grace ONLY would be effectually applied unto the Elect...
yes, the point is that whenever a man get saved by grace of God, its due to Him doing the work to save us, not us exercise personal faith apart from his grace applying to us!
exactly!
just was trying to see IF one holding that a sinner can by themselves produce faith by hearing Gospel ALONE is Semi pel!
Seems trhat some here say that man CAN have faith instrinsic in themselves that the Gospel itself is the Grace of God , NOT any other grace ...
I was taught that both cals/Arms do see man as being depraived and that before the Gospel can save them God has to bring them to a state able to respond...
cals say God applies grace directly, arms that man receives it
Both would say Gospel preaching to unsaved ALONE not enough!
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I wouldn't take issue with that description, however some on both sides of the debate would argue that God's grace (whether prevenient or effectual) is ONLY applied THROUGH the means of the Gospel. They do so because, like me, they recognize the incontrovertible biblical evidence that the power of salvation is the Gospel and views which seem to make the act of grace PRIOR or in any way SEPARATE from the Gospel can't be biblically supported.