What Time Is It?

[Stephen Green]

Part 1.

Appreciate your thoughtful response, Two Wings! I’ll try to address all your questions. I find great edification from these type of conversations, so I welcome any questions, objections etc. I'll have to break this up into two parts.

Two Wings: "Daniel 11 tells of this king (THE antichrist) who blasphemes God in the Temple and demands to be worshipped."

Since you’ve mentioned Dan. 11, I can reasonably assume you believe that it refers to the same time period which is the end times climax of Daniel 9. The first half of Daniel 11 accords very well with the successive invasions that culminate in Antiochus Epiphanes, aligning with the story of Chanukah etc. The reason I say this is the succession of kings in 11:1-35 begins with Daniel’s generation, and there’s clearly only so many years which could account for the number of kings described — certainly nothing like the thousands of years it would take to find 21st century fulfillment or beyond.

However, Dan. 11:36 absolutely implies a chronological jump — this “willful king” is not described as next in line from the last king mentioned, but his introduction follows Daniel bringing up “the time of the end” in v35, which absolutely places this king in the climax of the Daniel 9 timeline. This must needs be fulfilled in the past — the church was founded on this belief and the Church Fathers testify to this even in the days long before they assembled Biblical canon:

"The weeks of years up to the time of Christ the leader that Daniel the prophet predicted were fulfilled” Origen

As to the identity of the "willful King":

“Vespasian vanquished the Jews…and so by the date of his storming Jerusalem, the Jews had completed the seventy weeks foretold by Daniel.” Tertullian

“Vespasian rose to the supreme power (Emperor of Rome) and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place” Clement of Alexandria

This testimony continues in the early church following the canonization of the Bible:

“Jerusalem is to stand till His coming (Daniel’s reference to Messiah’s appearing in His First Advent), and thenceforth, prophet and vision cease in Israel (the end of the Old Covenant or Jewish Age). This is why Jerusalem stood till then…that they might be exercised in the types as a preparation for the reality…but from that time forth all prophecy is sealed and the city and Temple taken” Athanasius

A great more of the Church Fathers testify of this, avail yourself of this great resource: Preterism in the Church Fathers


Two Wings: "You're right, I was mistaken in my comment about the murderer of the Two Witnesses. Thanks for that correction."

Thanks!

 

[Stephen Green]

Part 2.

Two Wings: "But if all these time periods of Daniel have already passed ... where are we today? Where have we been the last 2000 years? Certainly not the millennium reign with Christ. If this is that ... we've been fooled big time about this entire theology/doctrine/existence."

Millennialism or chiliasm was condemned as an ascriptural heresy by the Second Ecumenical Council of 381. The heresy was originally very rare and had no advocates in the first generations of the church except for a few, in whom the particular error of chiliasm was condemned while the rest of their teachings were accepted (such as Justin Martyr). In the 4th century it became more commonly held, hence the need to examine it at the Council. The Council not only condemned chiliasm, but introduced to the Creed “his Kingdom will have no end” to clarify the Biblical doctrine of the Kingdom. It was the teaching of the Church that the Church itself is the Kingdom of God, and therefore had already come (as Christ proclaimed).

In other words, there was no “already/not yet” in the ancient church — only “already and forever.” That is "what time it was" then and still is to this day -- we are in the neverending Kingdom, whose growth shall know no end (Is. 9:7).

Two Wings: Never heard of Anunus ... that doesn't mean he didn't' exist, (It's only been 5 years that I've been aware of the 1536 decree to restore Jerusalem by Suleiman the Magnificent) I'm unconvinced this man is the reference of Daniel 9/11, or 2 Thess 2. I don't doubt he was a bad dude. I've also recently read about the probability a handful of Jewish rabbis wrote the koran ... in their hatred for Christianity. The ultimate straw man if you will, used by Satan himself.

Anunus ben Anunus certainly existed, with plenty of primary sources backing that up.

The 1536 decree you referred to does not meet the prophetic requirements. Daniel said there would be 7 weeks of 7 years (49 years) between the decree and the restoration of the city, and then another sixty three weeks (483 years) before the advent of Messiah. This demands that Jerusalem was restored and belonged to the Jews for at least 483 years until the 2026 termination point your math anticipates. This is not the case - the modern state of Israel was founded in 1947. This would demand another 483 years from 1947 in order to be consistent, according to your theory.

However, the problem with your theory here is that it requires the Messianic advent foreseen by Daniel to be a second coming, but it wasn’t. It was the prophecy of Christ's entire 1st century advent, in which he accomplished all things which some, only much later, categorized and separated as "first" and "second" coming prophecies. But this was not the expectation of the Jews; look no further than the Apostles' constant questions about when Jesus would consummate everything, as if it were imminent; and especially, their preaching that it was already in the process of happening (Acts 2; and the constant warnings of the Parousia's imminence in the Epistles and Revelation).

Re: Daniel 9 as a "first" coming prophecy, Daniel’s prophecies were the reason Herod went after the children; why John the Baptist went out preaching; and why Israel was waiting for her messiah at the time of Jesus. They had all been counting from the decree of Artaxerxes, recorded in the Bible in 1 Esdras 8. There were exactly 49 years til the restoration of the city, and another 483 until the baptism of Jesus Christ.

This is why Christ said “The time has come” when he preached the arrival of the Messianic Kingdom, and why he spoke of the ignorance of those who didn’t know the “times of the seasons” and often referenced Daniel (such as Mt. 24:15, which Jesus also clarifies is something that will be seen by his own generation Mt. 24:34).

The Bible is clear that the events that were coming upon Jesus’ generation were the end times events foretold by the prophets. People often will twist the plain meaning of "this generation" in the Olivet Discourse (Mt. 24, etc) to refer to some generation other than his own listeners; but you can't twist the plainer meaning of Lk. 11:51, where Jesus is making the same prophetic claim, but more clearly pointing at those he is speaking to ("you"). Both passages refer to the same prophecy and the same generation -- the generation that rejected Jesus ("those who pierced him" Rev. 1:7)

Again, the Church Fathers testify to this, and even the Jewish historian Josephus acknowledged that the events of the Jewish War, culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the Levitical priesthood, conformed to the prophetic warnings.

Two Wings: "The final destruction ... of the 2nd Temple ... in 70AD. Prophesied by Christ Himself as He left the structure for the last time.

"I don't understand how your suggestion of unfulfilled prophesy means we have no hope of a heavenly resurrection after death. Jesus did that and ... therefore ... gave the model. All that on which you've just educated me on this Anunus fellow doesn't invalidate that. I believe "the generation" Jesus referenced is the one which saw the rebirth of Israel ... in 1947."

I have already demonstrated why "this generation" in the Olivet Discourse can't refer to 1947; not only in light of Daniel 9 (the timeline doesn't add up by any stretch of the imagination); but also in light of a simple cross reference with Luke 11:51 which clarifies that Jesus was referring to the generation of his 1st century audience.

As for your lack of understanding about the Resurrection. Perhaps the reason you don't understand why unfulfilled prophecy means we don't have a hope of heavenly resurrection after death is because you are unaware that the Old Testament clearly teaches that when a man dies, he goes down to sheol, to Hades; and he would have no afterlife until the Day of Judgment, which is when the Resurrection happens. They are one and the same event. Jesus preaches about this very, very clearly in Jn. 5:22-30.

In other words: no heaven or hell until the Judgment.

Therefore, the fact that the early Church proclaimed, from the beginning, that heaven was open to the faithful departed, and that the departed Christian saints were now in heaven, is directly tied to their proclaiming the Resurrection and the Judgment had been fulfilled in Christ. Teaching that saints go to heaven is proof the early church taught that the Judgment and Resurrection had come.

The Lord Himself said "I am the Resurrection", and it is true. The heavenly resurrection, in the heavenly Jerusalem, in Christ, is what all faithful had been looking for. This is why Revelation says, "Blessed are those who die in Christ FROM NOW ON." Because before that, no one went to heaven after death.

In short, when a saint goes to heaven, that is his resurrection.

This is the whole point of Hebrews 11-12 -- that the fulfillment of eschatological hope was in heaven, not on earth. "Flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 15:50) -- from there, Paul explains further that in his own generation, those who had died would rise again to a heavenly resurrection, while those who were still alive wouldn't yet, though they would "change". The "change" that would happen on earth is clearly identified in the passage's climax: "When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory. Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting? The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!" (1 Cor. 54-57).

The plain meaning of this last passage is that the Old Covenant law would cease to be in effect. That was the "change" Paul was referring to for those still in the flesh and blood when the Judgment & Resurrection occured -- at Christ's Parousia, the chief earthly sign of which, Daniel (Dan. 9 & 12) and Jesus clearly told (Olivet Discourse), was the destruction of the Temple and the Levitical priesthood. Should anyone doubt that this was what the early Christians taught and believed, re-read the book of Hebrews, and then dive into the Fathers.

I hope this was helpful! God bless.

 

[David Kent]

Thinking this verse shows amil shows profound ignorance of Christ's teaching about the kingdom of God and prophecy. "The kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:21), but David's throne was and is physical.

And I'm ignoring you again. Your nastiness has already come out on this thread, and I want nothing to do with it. And you show profound ignorance of dispensationalism when you link it falsely to Roman Catholicism.

Hi think it is you who is ignorant of dispensationalism. I have studied the origins of this toxic doctrine. It began with Edward Irving who began to teach it on Cristmas Day 1825. (Morning Watch magazine, available on Goole Books) His church actually named the day in June 1833 when the rapture would take place. Irving amalgamated the teaching of RC futurist teachers particularly Lacunza who published under a false name Jewish name to confuse protestants, hi work The coming of the Christ in Majesty and Power.

Irving was a charismatic and was excommunicated for heresy from the Scottish Church for his views on the Propensity of Christ to sin. He also believed in the actual righteousness of i clleo rather than imputed righteousness. His church was named The Catholic Apostolic Church. At meetings on Prophecy held in Londo and Ireland, the teaching passed to the Plymoth Brethren who were the main propagators of the new doctrine until near the end of the 19th century when it was still widely regarded as a heresy. Then came Scofield and HIS bible which was given free to bible colleges in the US and the rest is History.

1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 

[asterisktom]

In other words, there was no “already/not yet” in the ancient church — only “already and forever.”
.

I especially like this comment. Yes, indeed.

 

[David Kent]

This is why Christ said “The time has come” when he preached the arrival of the Messianic Kingdom, and why he spoke of the ignorance of those who didn’t know the “times of the seasons” and often referenced Daniel (such as Mt. 24:15, which Jesus also clarifies is something that will be seen by his own generation Mt. 24:34).

The problem with that is that Scripture tells us that it was Cyrus who was to publish, not maketh decree which was given by God. Which is why Cyrus said God has Charged him to do it.

 

[Two Wings]

Perhaps the reason you don't understand why unfulfilled prophecy means we don't have a hope of heavenly resurrection after death is because you are unaware that the Old Testament clearly teaches that when a man dies, he goes down to sheol, to Hades;

you've written a LOT and I appreciate the time you took.

before I get too far into this ... the quoted portion of your second reply is prioritized.

Is there any unfulfilled prophesy in 2021? If so, then we don't have a hope of heavenly resurrection according to your statement. I wasn't referring to any specific prophesy because I didn't see any in the original declaration.

Yes, I am aware of the OT teaching ... that's the captives who were set free by Jesus during His 3 days. That doesn't happen anymore, which is part of the problem with the RCC's teaching ... and that relatives could buy their dead relative out of Hades. Crazy.

Anyhow ... if you can clarify this point about fulfilled prophesy, I'd appreciate it ... cause Dan 9:25 is pretty clear about fulfilling the prophesy ... e.g. there is no more prophesy to fulfill on That Day. (Jesus' Second Coming)

Thanks.

 

[37818]

captives who were set free by Jesus during His 3 days.

Actually not at all during the 3 days. But after the 40 days when He ascended to be our mediator and sent the Holy Spirit giving the gifts of the Spirit per Ephesians 4:8.

 

[Two Wings]

Actually not at all during the 3 days. But after the 40 days when He ascended to be our mediator and sent the Holy Spirit giving the gifts of the Spirit per Ephesians 4:8.

really?

I understood releasing the captives was all Jesus.

I understand Eph 4 to be the spiritual gifts for the unity of The Spirit ... in producing the fruit of The Spirit (Gal 5:24-25)

 

[37818]

I understood releasing the captives was all Jesus.

I understand Eph 4 to be the spiritual gifts for the unity of The Spirit ... in producing the fruit of The Spirit (Gal 5:24-25)

Yes.

. . . after the 40 days when He ascended to be our mediator and sent the Holy Spirit giving the gifts of the Spirit per Ephesians 4:8.

 

[Stephen Green]

The problem with that is that Scripture tells us that it was Cyrus who was to publish, not maketh decree which was given by God. Which is why Cyrus said God has Charged him to do it.

David, allowing for the Ptolemic dating of Cyrus’ reign to be wrong — it’d be off by nearly 80 years — I’d accept Cyrus’ decree to be the one. I agree the Bible emphasizes it. Sure, maybe Ptolemy was wrong and Cyrus’ reign was closer to 456 BC. But assuming Ptolemy’s dates are correct, then counting from Cyrus’ decree leaves us 80 years short of the coming of Jesus. His decree is specifically for the rebuilding of the temple, however, not the city, as Artaxerxes’ was.

 

[Two Wings]

David, allowing for the Ptolemic dating of Cyrus’ reign to be wrong — it’d be off by nearly 80 years — I’d accept Cyrus’ decree to be the one. I agree the Bible emphasizes it. Sure, maybe Ptolemy was wrong and Cyrus’ reign was closer to 456 BC. But assuming Ptolemy’s dates are correct, then counting from Cyrus’ decree leaves us 80 years short of the coming of Jesus. His decree is specifically for the rebuilding of the temple, however, not the city, as Artaxerxes’ was.

this has confused me in my study. As David Kent said, Cyrus was the dude visited by God in a dream ... a sort of "let my people go" kinda deal is how I see it. Then Nehemiah & Ezra, et al (the listing of all those who returned is VERY detailed!) go to rebuild the wall.

But then this Artaxerxes hombre (of Spartan fame) ... evidently he also made such a decree and the date of THIS one established the reference of Daniel 9's prophecy of "Messiah being cutoff."

... then there is the one I mentioned about which I was informed only a couple years ago by this Ottoman Sultan ... Suleiman the Magnificent in 1536. That math is consistent with at least 3 other timelines (Dan 12, Ez 4, Joshua 8) all pointing to 2026/2027 (Hebrew calendar splitting the Julian/Gregorian)

 

[John of Japan]

Hi think it is you who is ignorant of dispensationalism. I have studied the origins of this toxic doctrine. It began with Edward Irving who began to teach it on Cristmas Day 1825. (Morning Watch magazine, available on Goole Books) His church actually named the day in June 1833 when the rapture would take place. Irving amalgamated the teaching of RC futurist teachers particularly Lacunza who published under a false name Jewish name to confuse protestants, hi work The coming of the Christ in Majesty and Power.

I teach Dispensational Theology at a college and seminary level, so I hardly think I'm ignorant of it.

The doctrine did not begin with Irving. Many were dispensational long before Irving. Many of the church fathers believed that God gave dispensations, though the doctrine was not fully developed until Darby. See the book Ancient Dispensational Truth: Refuting the Myth that Dispensationalism is New, by James C. Morris. I'd give you some quotes, but I can't find my copy right now. At any rate, it is well known that the doctrine of premillennialism was almost universal among early church pastors until Augustine.

Pierre Poiret (1646-1719) wrote a dispensational systematic theology, L'Economie Divine, published in 1687. John Edwards (1637-1716) wrote a book, A Compleat History or Survey of All the Dispensations. Isaac Watts (1674-1748) taught a form of dispensationalism, and wrote, "The public dispensations of God towards men, are those wise and holy constitutions of his will and government, revealed or some way manifested to them, in the several successive periods or ages of the world, wherein are contained the duties which he expects from men, and the blessings which he promises...." (Dispensationalism, by Charles Ryrie, p. 76). This is exactly what I teach as a modern dispensationalist.

Irving was a charismatic and was excommunicated for heresy from the Scottish Church for his views on the Propensity of Christ to sin. He also believed in the actual righteousness of i clleo rather than imputed righteousness. His church was named The Catholic Apostolic Church. At meetings on Prophecy held in Londo and Ireland, the teaching passed to the Plymoth Brethren who were the main propagators of the new doctrine until near the end of the 19th century when it was still widely regarded as a heresy. Then came Scofield and HIS bible which was given free to bible colleges in the US and the rest is History.

Well, first of all, Irving was not a Charismatic. He could not have been, because that movement did not begin until the 1960's. (I also teach Church History.) Secondly, there is no direct historical link between Irving and Darby. Thirdly, even if there was, none of this is a refutation of dispensationalism, but simply an attack against it.

1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

A careful exegesis can reveal no actual connection between this verse and dispensationalism. However, dispensations are clearly taught in the Bible with the same exact meaning that I teach as a dispensationalist, such as these:

"For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor. 9:17).

"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him" (Eph. 1:10 ).

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward" (Eph. 3:2).

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col. 1:25).

Oh, and one more thing. You call dispensationalism a "toxic doctrine," yet the main theme of dispensationalism is the glory of God. Do you oppose giving God the glory for His workings in history? Because that is exactly what dispensationalism does.

 

[JD731]

Does God have a timeline? YES.

Can we know it? Does he want us to know it? I believe…YES.

I have not followed this thread so I do not know how the conversation has progressed but I would like to weigh in on the questions above as a dispensationalist after the manner of Scofield.

Time lines are all over the scriptures and are often typical in nature. God reveals his truths in a circle and he always illustrates spiritual truths, or fulfilled truths, with physical comparisons. Time lines are illustrated this way, as well as other truths. A proof of this truth is that this age, from the resurrection to the day of the LORD judgements is illustrated, beginning in Matthew 13, (a number that stands for transgression and is most often associated with gentiles. The word itself has 13 letters) with 7 (seven = complete) parables. This age is illustrated as a growing season and begins with a man sowing seed in a field and ending with the harvesting of the crop he had sown. Several things happened during the season that I will not mention here but the crop was contaminated with fruitless seed, called tares, that resembled the wheat but soaked up the nutrients of the soil and amounted to nothing. These were gathered by the angels into bundles prior to the harvesting into the barn of the fruitful crop. These bundles are to be burned after the harvesting of the field.

This is a synopsis of this entire age that is given in these parables in this chapter and is the result of the failure of the Jewish nation to receive him as their promised Messiah. It is necessary because of the first 12 chapters (twelve = perfect government of God) when Jesus preached his gospel of the kingdom to the Jews and was ready to establish it on the model of that under Moses when he led them out of bondage of Egypt to establish them in their own land.

Moses
12 heads over the 12 tribes of Israel
70 elders.

Jesus
12 apostles
70 others

The kingdom of heaven is at hand was his message until Matthew 12 and after the showdown with the Jewish rulers when it became obvious that the harvest of that age was ripe but there were no laborers to reap it, the message was the "mysteries of the kingdom." It was a mystery because there was not a single mention of this age by the OT prophets. Everything during this age is new. This confirms that the offer of Jesus Christ to establish his kingdom rule was legitimate and real. The subjects of this earthly kingdom must be born again of the Spirit of God, and that would have happened for the nation at his resurrection had they believed. A nation would have been born in a day. Matthew 13 reveals the Jews were judicially blinded nationally and individuals who would believe would become the subjects of the heavenly kingdom. It did not mean the earthly kingdom would never be established with the promises of the OT voided.

There is much to know but time lines are of extreme importance and divisions of time must be acknowledged and accepted if we are going to know the mind of God.

Here is the end of the previous age.

Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

The law could not redeem anyone and one must be redeemed before the kingdom could be established. This is what made the good news of Jesus Christ so great.



Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

But he is the beginning of a new program of God at his showing to Israel.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

That is the beginning of the good news of Jesus Christ. We are going to have redemption through him. It begins in Israel and goes to the world, but all in God's timing.

The OT principle of law ended when Jesus Christ was crucified and the NT principle of grace to the world began when Jesus Christ rose from the dead. No one could be redeemed under the principle of law but everyone became guilty under it, but everyone can be redeemed under the principle of grace because the gospel of God is to the nations and the gospel of Jesus Christ is the way of salvation to all who will beleieve.

This is the most glorious truth that anyone can ever hear. Glory to God and thank you Jesus our Lord.

Rom 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.


2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[JD731]

I would like to follow up my dispensational rant in the previous post I made with one that I hope will be a convincing argument for different ages, or time lines, or dispensations, that God has ordered throughout history, in which he has employed different principles of divine dealing with men while making all of his character traits manifest to the world that he desires to save.
I quoted Ga 4:4 before to show that Jesus Christ came in the fullness of time. Time is singular in this passage. It should not be confused with the nearly identical phrase in Ephesians 1. However, the difference is very important and should be noted and understood. That passage says the following;

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

The one thing that should be noticed is that "times" is plural in Ephesians 1:10 while it is singular in Ga 4:4. We saw earlier that the fulness of time in Ga 4:4 was in relation to the physical appearance of Jesus Christ as a man, born of a woman, and coming into the world for the purpose of tasting death for every man and saving sinners. In Ephesians, the fulness of times is God the Father gathering together in one place all the redeemed that has been put into the body of Christ, which we know is the church, the formation of which has been God's purpose of this entire age, called by Paul in Ephesian 3, The dispensation of the grace of God.

Since the final age in time is also the beginning of the final 1000 years of the seven thousand year days of God, or, saying it another way, sometimes very early on the seventh or sabbath day, we can see clearly that the church of Jesus Christ will not be glorified and taken to the Father's house until sometime on the final day, perhaps as the first divine event of that dispensation. It is constantly called "the day of the LORD" in both testaments, and it is always beginning as a dark day of the wrath of God against sinners. This is the usual way a day begins in Jewish thought. It begins in the evening and gives way to the light of the morning. In 1 Thessalonians 5 Paul says we, the church of Jesus Christ, are not children of darkness but we are the children of light. The world would not be dark if the children of light were in it.

But this brings me to what God reveals for us in Hebrews 1 with a comparison with Heb 9. Hebrews 1 says the following;

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the (Hebrew) fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us (Hebrews) by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

It is important to note that the word in verse 2 has been translated from the Greek word Aions. This is not the physical planets but it means ages, or time frames.

Now follow what is said in Hebrews 9:26 in this context. It is very instructive in connection to ages or dispensations.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The first word, world, is translating the word kosmos, or the physical planet. The earth. The second word, world, is translating the word aion, meaning age. We know that Jesus did not come and suffer on the cross in the end of the kosmos, because we are still here on the globe 2000 years later. However, Jesus Christ did appear to the Hebrews at the end of an age, the age ,or dispensation, of the Mosaic Law as an operative principle of his divine dealing with the Hebrews.

Paul said in Romans 10:4 that Jesus Christ was the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. He said in Ga 3 that the law was their schoolmaster to bring them to Christ, but after faith is come we are no longer under a school master. Most Jews remained under the law as a matter of unbelief in Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

No one should doubt that God made pivots in history with how he dealt with men in his unfolding drama of redemption. Obviously I have pointed out a major pivot point away from the law after it had served it's purpose for Israel, who labored under it's constraints. During the apostolic era in this age the Jews were under the principle of promise because constant reference was made by the preachers to Israel of fulfilled OT prophecy in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

It was not so with gentiles, who were accepted in the beloved at about 10 years after the Jews, but without reference to any OT prophecies, because what would gentiles know about them. They were far away from God during those days of the law. Therefore the operative principle of God's dealing with gentiles in this age was "grace." God gave the open door of salvation to gentiles, who could not claim a promise of it and who certainly did not deserve it. When Judah was driven out of her land in AD 70 and lost her national identity, Jews became as gentiles and the operative principle from that time till now for both Jew and gentile is grace.

If one would like to see the difference in how Paul, the apostle preached to Jews as opposed to how he preached to gentiles, he should compare the sermon preached to Jews in Acts 13:16-41 with the one preached to gentiles in Athens in Acts 17:22-31. Comparing them will prove my point above.

The Bible itself is the evidence for the dispensational divisions of time and purpose. I do not know about anyone else but these wonderful truths and the wisdom of God and his goodness overwhelms me and I am so thankful to be included in his church with the hope of a new body soon and to be with him where he is. Praise to God our Father and to his son, our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen!

 

[Two Wings]

the only asterisk I'd put in either of the two previous posts by JD731 is about the numerology of Matthew 13.

The Epistles, Gospels and even Revelation IRRC, were written without chapter & verse. They were single documents with paragraphs only so for a very long time before chapter & verse ... so IDK if that plays as important a tell as is suggested.

Otherwise, much appreciation for the substantiation of the glory of this king to seek out the matter of which it is a glory of God to conceal. Proverbs 25

 

[JD731]

the only asterisk I'd put in either of the two previous posts by JD731 is about the numerology of Matthew 13.

The Epistles, Gospels and even Revelation IRRC, were written without chapter & verse. They were single documents with paragraphs only so for a very long time before chapter & verse ... so IDK if that plays as important a tell as is suggested.

Otherwise, much appreciation for the substantiation of the glory of this king to seek out the matter of which it is a glory of God to conceal. Proverbs 25

One of the great blessings of my life was when my pastor gave me a copy of the Old Scofield Reference Bible when I was a very young Christian. I learned that understanding the covenants that God made with men and his dispensational truths were key to understand the mind of God. John of Japan was right when he said dispensational teaching glorifies God ,because it is his way.

 

[Stephen Green]

you've written a LOT and I appreciate the time you took.

before I get too far into this ... the quoted portion of your second reply is prioritized.

Is there any unfulfilled prophesy in 2021? If so, then we don't have a hope of heavenly resurrection according to your statement. I wasn't referring to any specific prophesy because I didn't see any in the original declaration.

Yes, I am aware of the OT teaching ... that's the captives who were set free by Jesus during His 3 days. That doesn't happen anymore, which is part of the problem with the RCC's teaching ... and that relatives could buy their dead relative out of Hades. Crazy.

Anyhow ... if you can clarify this point about fulfilled prophesy, I'd appreciate it ... cause Dan 9:25 is pretty clear about fulfilling the prophesy ... e.g. there is no more prophesy to fulfill on That Day. (Jesus' Second Coming)

Thanks.

As for your first question, no, there is not any unfulfilled prophesy in 2021.

I'm not sure what you mean by "that's the captives who were set free by Jesus during His 3 days. That doesn't happen anymore." I wish you had explained that statement.

Similarly, I'm not sure what you're driving re: Dan. 9:25. There isn't anything about Jesus' "second" coming in that particular verse.

Aside from these specifics, I sense that your general question is why I say unfulfilled prophecy = no heavenly resurrection yet. But I really put the meat & potatoes of my argument into my lengthy 2-part response, so at least know that that was my intention and perhaps re-read it with that in mind.

See if re-reading my response helps you understand my thesis. If not, forgive me, would you mind rephrasing your question, and explaining some of your assumptions? Thanks!

God bless!

 

[Stephen Green]

I have not followed this thread so I do not know how the conversation has progressed but I would like to weigh in on the questions above as a dispensationalist after the manner of Scofield.

Time lines are all over the scriptures and are often typical in nature. God reveals his truths in a circle and he always illustrates spiritual truths, or fulfilled truths, with physical comparisons. Time lines are illustrated this way, as well as other truths. A proof of this truth is that this age, from the resurrection to the day of the LORD judgements is illustrated, beginning in Matthew 13, (a number that stands for transgression and is most often associated with gentiles. The word itself has 13 letters) with 7 (seven = complete) parables. This age is illustrated as a growing season and begins with a man sowing seed in a field and ending with the harvesting of the crop he had sown. Several things happened during the season that I will not mention here but the crop was contaminated with fruitless seed, called tares, that resembled the wheat but soaked up the nutrients of the soil and amounted to nothing. These were gathered by the angels into bundles prior to the harvesting into the barn of the fruitful crop. These bundles are to be burned after the harvesting of the field.

This is a synopsis of this entire age that is given in these parables in this chapter and is the result of the failure of the Jewish nation to receive him as their promised Messiah. It is necessary because of the first 12 chapters (twelve = perfect government of God) when Jesus preached his gospel of the kingdom to the Jews and was ready to establish it on the model of that under Moses when he led them out of bondage of Egypt to establish them in their own land.

Moses
12 heads over the 12 tribes of Israel
70 elders.

Jesus
12 apostles
70 others

The kingdom of heaven is at hand was his message until Matthew 12 and after the showdown with the Jewish rulers when it became obvious that the harvest of that age was ripe but there were no laborers to reap it, the message was the "mysteries of the kingdom." It was a mystery because there was not a single mention of this age by the OT prophets. Everything during this age is new. This confirms that the offer of Jesus Christ to establish his kingdom rule was legitimate and real. The subjects of this earthly kingdom must be born again of the Spirit of God, and that would have happened for the nation at his resurrection had they believed. A nation would have been born in a day. Matthew 13 reveals the Jews were judicially blinded nationally and individuals who would believe would become the subjects of the heavenly kingdom. It did not mean the earthly kingdom would never be established with the promises of the OT voided.

There is much to know but time lines are of extreme importance and divisions of time must be acknowledged and accepted if we are going to know the mind of God.

Here is the end of the previous age.

Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

The law could not redeem anyone and one must be redeemed before the kingdom could be established. This is what made the good news of Jesus Christ so great.



Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

But he is the beginning of a new program of God at his showing to Israel.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

That is the beginning of the good news of Jesus Christ. We are going to have redemption through him. It begins in Israel and goes to the world, but all in God's timing.

The OT principle of law ended when Jesus Christ was crucified and the NT principle of grace to the world began when Jesus Christ rose from the dead. No one could be redeemed under the principle of law but everyone became guilty under it, but everyone can be redeemed under the principle of grace because the gospel of God is to the nations and the gospel of Jesus Christ is the way of salvation to all who will beleieve.

This is the most glorious truth that anyone can ever hear. Glory to God and thank you Jesus our Lord.

Rom 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.


2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

JD, thanks for your lengthy and thoughtful sharing. A few questions.

You say that "The kingdom of heaven is at hand was his message until Matthew 12 and after the showdown with the Jewish rulers when it became obvious that the harvest of that age was ripe but there were no laborers to reap it, the message was the 'mysteries of the kingdom.' It was a mystery because there was not a single mention of this age by the OT prophets."

First, the Lord didn't say that there were "no" laborers, but that there were "few". But he resolves this himself by sending the twelve; and Luke also records that he sent out the seventy-two. Luke's account makes this problem-solution sequence even more clear. Not only this, but he sends out these messengers with the same message as his own from the beginning ("The Kingdom of God/heaven is at hand" Mt. 10:7, Lk. 10:11) -- there is no pivot to another message, as you have claimed. What do you say to this?

Similarly, when you say "there was not a single mention of this age by the OT prophets", I am surprised that you don't qualify this statement with any explanation. Not only is it unclear what you are referring to when you say "this age", but you also didn't explain how "this age" (whatever you're referring to) was never mentioned by the OT prophets.

Look forward to your response.

 

[Two Wings]

I'm not sure what you mean by "that's the captives who were set free by Jesus during His 3 days. That doesn't happen anymore."

My father whom I lost to cancer 5 years ago is not in Hades like Daniel WAS. I've read here by someone suggesting the captives were set free during Jesus' 40 days He was resurrected, but not yet ascended.

My understanding is that all were set free from Hades between the point He died and the point He was resurrected ... the New Covenant established at His baptism meant no more Hades additions. absent from the body & present with the Lord ... to be resurrected at the rapture with an incorruptible body ... but not in Hades.

I'm not sure how there's no more unfulfilled prophesy. Daniel 9:25 is a clear illustration of The Day of The Lord ... aka Second Coming ... Jesus' Return. That includes the prophesy sealed-up .... which means until that day, there is prophesy revealed/fulfilled.

I'm not fully versed on this further discussion you offer regarding the resurrection and unfulfilled prophesy. I can agree that the resurrection doesn't happen until the prophesy is sealed (on The Day of The Lord) ...but that hasn't happened yet; there is unfulfilled prophesy. The Bridegroom has yet to Return for His Bride, but will, as prophesied.

I think you have have a GREAT handle on this, but I'm just not where you are on this point about the current condition of all prophesy being fulfilled.

Thanks!

 

[JD731]

JD, thanks for your lengthy and thoughtful sharing. A few questions.

You say that "The kingdom of heaven is at hand was his message until Matthew 12 and after the showdown with the Jewish rulers when it became obvious that the harvest of that age was ripe but there were no laborers to reap it, the message was the 'mysteries of the kingdom.' It was a mystery because there was not a single mention of this age by the OT prophets."

First, the Lord didn't say that there were "no" laborers, but that there were "few". But he resolves this himself by sending the twelve; and Luke also records that he sent out the seventy-two. Luke's account makes this problem-solution sequence even more clear. Not only this, but he sends out these messengers with the same message as his own from the beginning ("The Kingdom of God/heaven is at hand" Mt. 10:7, Lk. 10:11) -- there is no pivot to another message, as you have claimed. What do you say to this?

Similarly, when you say "there was not a single mention of this age by the OT prophets", I am surprised that you don't qualify this statement with any explanation. Not only is it unclear what you are referring to when you say "this age", but you also didn't explain how "this age" (whatever you're referring to) was never mentioned by the OT prophets.

Look forward to your response.

I look forward to answering your questions but first I have one for you. Do you accept the very plain and unambiguous statements of Jesus Christ concerning himself when he came into the world the first time? Here are two.

1)
Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

2)
Mt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.