Unbelievers can do good things, but it doesn't change their standing with God. They are still condemned. Only the blood of Christ can change the sinner into the redeemed.
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What UNIQUELY sets apart a 'work of God' from every other common event in history?
- Thread starter Skandelon
- Start date
Unbelievers can do good things, but it doesn't change their standing with God. They are still condemned. Only the blood of Christ can change the sinner into the redeemed.
psalms109:31
Active Member
I really didn't understand that verse without using terms or expressions of that day but I think Westley does a good job of explaining that proverbs.
Wesley's Notes
21:4 The plowing - Even their civil or natural actions, which in themselves are lawful, are made sinful as they are managed by ungodly men, without any regard to the glory of God, which ought to be the end of all our actions.
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convicted1
Guest
Now this I agree with wholeheartedly. If a sinner runs inside a burning house, and rescues a baby, and dies, eventhough he saved his/her life, he will stand before God condemned. It was a good and honorable thing to do, and not a sin to save a baby, but it doesn't save him.
I just can't fugure out how someone can either do the wrong or right thing......referring to the lost wallet scenario I used in a previous post, and BOTH are sins......if someone does the right thing, and gives the wallet back, it's sin?
The issue is not whether returning a lost wallet to its owner is sin. It's certainly considered good by society. But is it good according to God's measure outside of being born again?
[6]*We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
(Isaiah 64:6 ESV)
[10]*as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
[11]*no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
[12]*All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
(Romans 3:10-12 ESV)
Note: God created us (believers) for good works:
[10]*For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(Ephesians 2:10 ESV)
Trust me, I get the societal definition of good. It's just that societies definition and God's definition are two different things.
Yes, but Willis ALSO believes that God knew for certain before time began every sin that would ever be committed, every travesty (including the acts of Dalmer)- AND he believes that God went ahead and made the world knowing exactly what would take place if he did.
Is THAT what you believe?
As enunciated above, it is not that simple, is it?
It's all I need with the lack of substance you are providing.
No sir. If you HAD anything else you would employ it.
This very post of yours is proof enough of that.
You can't stand being beaten in a debate- that's why you posted this impassioned post here.
It is of immense importance to you on a deep personal level that you get the last word and/or appear to come out on top.
If you had it- you'd come with it guns blazing- anything to make it seem you are a very superior debater.
You'd use it, if you had it.
But all you have is an appeal to emotions (i.e. GOD WOULD NEVER!!!!) and an appeal to authorities (How many scholars ya got?)
Invincible proof of what I said above.
You don't accept quotes- you spin them.
That's what others have tried to get you to see in the past as well.
Calvin did say it.
But who cares?
It is an obscure passage that has been addressed very little by Calvinists.
YOU brought it up. YOU were trying to use this obscure passage to prove that Calvinists are wrong about Total Depravity.
The only burden thus placed upon me was to give a fair interpretation of that passage that allows for men to be totally depraved.
I did.
You lose. I know that is UNTHINKABLY hard for you to accept. I know that NOTHING ON EARTH shakes you to your core any more than that- but it is what it is.:thumbsup:
There IS no "might".
It is not possible so it does not even TOUCH Total Depravity.
That totally depraved men can be regenerated is no mark against total depravity.
So? (And I don't even concede that point)
Jacobus Arminius was not an Open Theist Skan.
MOST Arminians have NO TROUBLE WHATSOEVER embracing the classical view of the omniscience of God.
You might VERY WELL BE ALL ALONE on this board (except for fringe folks like Winman and VAN) in your total inability to affirm the fact that God has always known all there is to ever know about everything and not just what would potentially happen but what would actually happen thus God built this world intending for this very world to exist for a time.
So who cares if ON ONE OBSCURE PASSAGE the only Calvinist I have produced is Calvin himself?? Especially when you are given to spinning Calvinist's quotes when they are given to you.
This is ironic. I think it is clearly the other way around.
I have not attacked you personally.
Do you not know what ad hom IS?
Saying that you have been thoroughly defeated is not a personal attack, Skan. Saying Reagan trounced Mondale in the 84 election is not a personal attack against Mondale. It is a statement of fact TOTALLY UNRELATED to his person. If I said Modale was defeated because Mondale is stupid- THAT would be ad hom. Same applies to what I said here.
But it is VERY telling that you take it as a personal attack. Very telling.
Good enough.
Right. Which is in line with the Westminster and London Baptist Confession of Faith... and Scripture.
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Motive is crucial, Willis.
Scripture says that whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Jesus said that our works should glorify our Father which is in heaven.
An unregenerate sinner, no matter WHAT he does- though he gives his body to be BURNED it is nothing- because he cannot do it for the right motive: the glory of God.
convicted1
Guest
I agree with this. God sees us as sinner or saint, with the blood of Christ or not. But to say someone does the right thing, and yet have that accounted as sin, is pushing the envelope. Sinners can do the right things, but they are still sinners. No amount of good deeds will save them. But to say someone sinned doing the right thing, is wrong.
Try this:
Let's say My pastor asks me to preach. So I do, and I preach the true Gospel, with good intention to be faithful to the text. But...at the same time, I am also wanting people to think I'm a good preacher (fear of man, pride), perhaps also thinking I am saying certain things in a better way than my pastor normally says them (arrogance), and perhaps also noticing that He says some things better than me and coveting his speaking ability. I am clearly doing some things that scripture calls sin, even while doing a very good thing (preaching the Gospel)...and I'm a believer.
Unbelievers do this and much more, in that they are constantly breaking the commands to love the Lord your God with all your heart, and to do all to the Glory of God. So for an unbeliever or believer, if one returns a wallet, but does not do it for God's glory, but for some other reason, perhaps to be though well of by others, perhaps because it just makes them feel good about themselves (self-righteousness), then they are still sinning.
convicted1
Guest
You may be right about your preaching scenario, Brother 12strings, when our flesh rises up, we sin, and get ourselves in trouble.
Now, if I found a wallet and returned it to someone when I was a sinner, I would have done so because it would have been the right thing to do. This was the way I was raised. If we found something that wasn't ours, we didn't keep it, but gave it back to the rightful owner. There would have been no bragging, boasting, celebrating, etc.
Now, if I found a wallet and returned it to someone when I was a sinner, I would have done so because it would have been the right thing to do. This was the way I was raised. If we found something that wasn't ours, we didn't keep it, but gave it back to the rightful owner. There would have been no bragging, boasting, celebrating, etc.
You are either going to believe the Bible or not, Willis.
If you are determined to believe whatever you want REGARDLESS of what the Bible says, then there is nothing I can tell you that will change your mind.
But the Bible could not be clearer.
-The plowing of the wicked is SIN.
-Whatsoever is not of faith is SIN.
-THERE IS NONE THAT DOETH GOOD
-Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, NOTHING is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled
-Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 - The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... from his
-Romans 7:18 - For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh
-Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? THEN ALSO YOU CAN DO GOOD who are accustomed to do evil.
-Proverbs 15:8 - The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord (c.f. Proverbs 21:27
-Isaiah 64:6 - We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment
-Hebrews 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please [God]
-Romans 8:7-8 - Those who are in the flesh cannot please God
Now Willis, I'm sorry, but I think if you deny this truth at this point you are guided not by Scripture or logic but by emotions and personal preference.
psalms109:31
Active Member
We are responsible for our action good or bad not God. We are either being lead by our own will or the will of God being lead by His word. God is not responsible for the path we take we are. Trusting in God is not a work nor does God considerate it a work only men try to make it that way.
Who walks before you and directs your path?
Who walks before you and directs your path?
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You are either going to believe the Bible or not, psalms.
If you are determined to believe whatever you want REGARDLESS of what the Bible says, then there is nothing I can tell you that will change your mind.
But the Bible could not be clearer.
-The plowing of the wicked is SIN.
-Whatsoever is not of faith is SIN.
-THERE IS NONE THAT DOETH GOOD
-Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, NOTHING is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled
-Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 - The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... from his
-Romans 7:18 - For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh
-Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? THEN ALSO YOU CAN DO GOOD who are accustomed to do evil.
-Proverbs 15:8 - The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord (c.f. Proverbs 21:27
-Isaiah 64:6 - We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment
-Hebrews 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please [God]
-Romans 8:7-8 - Those who are in the flesh cannot please God
Now psalms, I'm sorry, but I think if you deny this truth at this point you are guided not by Scripture or logic but by emotions and personal preference.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Double post
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psalms109:31
Active Member
Is God going to save the righteous or the wicked sinner?
We are responsible for our own actions not God
Is God going to be accountable and responsible for our actions with the message of the cross?
You don't know me to say that I am emotional driven.
To be moved with compassion for people Souls is a good thing not a sin.
Jeremiah 23 tells me there's people not doing the will of God But doing their own will
We are responsible for our own actions not God
Is God going to be accountable and responsible for our actions with the message of the cross?
You don't know me to say that I am emotional driven.
To be moved with compassion for people Souls is a good thing not a sin.
Jeremiah 23 tells me there's people not doing the will of God But doing their own will
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psalms109:31
Active Member
Jesus came to save sinners and I am the worst. Scripture teaches us our state not to tell us we can't come, but to tell us to come just they way we are.
John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
Deuteronomy 30 :
The Choice of Life or Death
11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
I mostly thumbed through the beginning of this thread not realizing it was so long. I've now skipped ahead and it seems to have turned into a spat of some sort?
Anyhow, I wanted to give my layman's take on a few things. BTW, some seem to desire making things complicated by resorting to confusing Scholarly terms and then arguing over such?
In regards to that:
It's counter productive to argue devisively over things, which the Bible is silent upon or such as we will never understand until we meet God.
Now in regards to a few points I'd like to make in response to some comments read.
1) God made us as He did all things. He didn't make us perfect though because we would then be as God.
2) God also gave us free will. He understood we would sin but that doesn't make Him the author of sin. Nor does stating He "created" all things suggest He must also have created sin.
3) Sin isn't a creation. It is an "act" of disobedience (transgression) against God. One Scholar at Focus on the Family eloquently stated it could be seen as a "void". Sin only exists where the will of God is devoid.
4) So why doesn't God kill us prior to sinning or refrain from creating us in the first place? As one poster inquired. Because God truly loves us, as the Bible in fact teaches us, and desires a relationship with us.
Our parents love us as well, despite the fact they knew we would eventually make mistakes. Some of us make more than others, btw.:tongue3:
5) God most definetly and specifically intervenes at times. Thus His works are seen in our lives and throughout history. Again though; God gave man free will and we chose our will over His. So we are subject to others sins and the evils of the world.
Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden after all and then subject to death and the hardships of the world. God doesn't let man sin and then fully protect him from sin and wordly disasters. That was our decision. God did continue to look after Adam and Even though, as the Bible shows.
He must truly love us...
Take care,
Ralph
Anyhow, I wanted to give my layman's take on a few things. BTW, some seem to desire making things complicated by resorting to confusing Scholarly terms and then arguing over such?
In regards to that:
It's counter productive to argue devisively over things, which the Bible is silent upon or such as we will never understand until we meet God.
Now in regards to a few points I'd like to make in response to some comments read.
1) God made us as He did all things. He didn't make us perfect though because we would then be as God.
2) God also gave us free will. He understood we would sin but that doesn't make Him the author of sin. Nor does stating He "created" all things suggest He must also have created sin.
3) Sin isn't a creation. It is an "act" of disobedience (transgression) against God. One Scholar at Focus on the Family eloquently stated it could be seen as a "void". Sin only exists where the will of God is devoid.
4) So why doesn't God kill us prior to sinning or refrain from creating us in the first place? As one poster inquired. Because God truly loves us, as the Bible in fact teaches us, and desires a relationship with us.
Our parents love us as well, despite the fact they knew we would eventually make mistakes. Some of us make more than others, btw.:tongue3:
5) God most definetly and specifically intervenes at times. Thus His works are seen in our lives and throughout history. Again though; God gave man free will and we chose our will over His. So we are subject to others sins and the evils of the world.
Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden after all and then subject to death and the hardships of the world. God doesn't let man sin and then fully protect him from sin and wordly disasters. That was our decision. God did continue to look after Adam and Even though, as the Bible shows.
He must truly love us...
Take care,
Ralph
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1 In what way would we be like God?
2 Why are we supposed to believe God gave us free will- because you say so? And how do you define free will?
3 agreed
4 who KNOWS WHY? We do know God kills all kinds of people. Does he not love them?
5 This is just a repeat of point 2
Hello Luke....
The Bible does tell us however....
a) God made us in His image: Gen 1:26 "Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...."
b) The Bible answers your question bluntly though: Gen 3:22 "Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil..."
c) God then kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden, because they went against His will (which answers your second question) and also to limit them from becoming even more as God: Gen 3:22 "...And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden..."
a) Free will is the ability to make a choice beyond what others or even God may desire. That doesn't mean God doesn't intervene at times.
ex) My dad allowed me to ride a bike. He would have stopped me however if I had ever headed toward a cliff. Now, had I been dead set on riding it off that cliff, there would have come a time in which he didn't intervene.
b) No, this isn't according to me! Man's ability to make choices, even if they are contrary to the will of God, is clearly shown throughout the Bible. Sin is the obvious and a daily reminder that we are not choosing God's will, btw.
"Sin" is more than sufficient for argument but here is some Scripture, as again, it's not according to me.
c) Just because God knows the future, that doesn't mean we therefore have no free will, or choice, or the ability to choose. I realize Theologians are in debate on both sides of this but the Bible clearly states we have choice. Which means we have a will.
ex) My Dad knew I would play sports and as such I would get hurt or face dissapointment at times. The fact he knew I would get hurt or face dissapointment prior to my ever playing sports, doesn't negate the fact it was my choice to play those sports.
God Bless,
Ralph
My prior statement was self evident Luke. God didn't make us to be equal to Him. We are God's creation and His creations are not to be exalted above Him(Rom 1:25).
The Bible does tell us however....
a) God made us in His image: Gen 1:26 "Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...."
b) The Bible answers your question bluntly though: Gen 3:22 "Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil..."
c) God then kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden, because they went against His will (which answers your second question) and also to limit them from becoming even more as God: Gen 3:22 "...And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden..."
The real question is what do you beleive of free will?
a) Free will is the ability to make a choice beyond what others or even God may desire. That doesn't mean God doesn't intervene at times.
ex) My dad allowed me to ride a bike. He would have stopped me however if I had ever headed toward a cliff. Now, had I been dead set on riding it off that cliff, there would have come a time in which he didn't intervene.
b) No, this isn't according to me! Man's ability to make choices, even if they are contrary to the will of God, is clearly shown throughout the Bible. Sin is the obvious and a daily reminder that we are not choosing God's will, btw.
"Sin" is more than sufficient for argument but here is some Scripture, as again, it's not according to me.
c) Just because God knows the future, that doesn't mean we therefore have no free will, or choice, or the ability to choose. I realize Theologians are in debate on both sides of this but the Bible clearly states we have choice. Which means we have a will.
ex) My Dad knew I would play sports and as such I would get hurt or face dissapointment at times. The fact he knew I would get hurt or face dissapointment prior to my ever playing sports, doesn't negate the fact it was my choice to play those sports.
God Bless,
Ralph
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1- Who ever said God DID make us to be equal with him. What is your point here?
2- Your definition of free will is compatible with even the fiercest determinist so once again I don't see what point you are trying to make. Nobody that I have ever HEARD of denies that men make choices and have wills.
But what is mythological is this ability to make choices totally apart from causes. Men do what they most desire to do so their choices are bound by desires which are themselves bound by their nature. There is nothing free about that.