What validates the offer of salvation?

[canadyjd]

Ok, lets us reason this out properly as to what makes the offer valid to non-elect that they can be saved if they will believe. (simply put - the gospel offer is, believe and be saved).

The question is about what validates the offer.

The promise of God to save those who come to Jesus Christ in repentance and faith, validates the offer. All who come, will be saved.

...example. If Bill Gates offered you a million dollars but he did not have a million dollars for you nor did he ever intend to give you a million dollars, Is his offer valid? Of course not. Logic should tell you he was a liar.

A better analogy. Bill Gates makes this offer to everyone. I will give you a million dollars if you will lift 2000 lbs over your head. Bill Gates draws up legal documents that holds him accountable in court to give a million dollars to everyone who lifts the 2000 lbs.

Bill Gates has the money. He has promised to give the money. He is obligated to a higher authority.

No one is able. But Bill Gates, according to the kind intention of his will, choses certain people to receive bionic implants that will change the very structure of the muscles and give them the ability to lift 2000 lbs over their heads.

Every single person who recieves the implants comes forward and lift the weight. All of those chosen recieve the million dollars. Bill Gates is praised for his mercy and compassion.

God promises to give eternal life to all that believe on His Son. God is able to give eternal life. There is no higher authority than God, so He will keep His promise, since it is impossible for Him to lie. The promise validates the offer.

No one is able.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ.

And God is praised for His mercy and compassion.

peace to youraying:

 

[Allan]

The question is about what validates the offer.

EXACTLY. What is it that makes the offer of salvation to the non-elect a valid offer of salvation for those whom God did not make a way to be saved?

The promise of God to save those who come to Jesus Christ in repentance and faith, validates the offer.

Again, the entire crux of the issue.
For what purpose will come to Jesus who did nothing for them?
If Jesus did nothing for them regarding salvation then God can not honestly state, believe and be saved.

How are you saved JD?
Is it not by faith? Faith in what?
Jesus - the historical figure?
Jesus being God and nothing more?
OR...
Is it faith in the work/propitiation of Christ for us?

We are told by God to believe and be saved, that is the gospel message. But believe what? This is what establishes the offer FOR salvation and gives the offer to be saved its validity. Even you can't get away from this very point as seen in your own argument. Look at your own statement:

All who come, will be saved.A better analogy. Bill Gates makes this offer to everyone. I will give you a million dollars if you will lift 2000 lbs over your head. Bill Gates draws up legal documents that holds him accountable in court to give a million dollars to everyone who lifts the 2000 lbs.

This, as I said, is the crux of the issue at hand.
Just as Bill Gates must establish not only that He can pay what is offered, but also prove He legally/ligitimately has provided for all those to whom to
the is extended. So we also find with God's offer. He however is not accountable to any man's court but He is accountable to His very nature, Justice and Holiness and Truth - the very court of Heaven itself.

Bill Gates has the money. He has promised to give the money. He is obligated to a higher authority.

No one is able. But Bill Gates, according to the kind intention of his will, choses certain people to receive bionic implants that will change the very structure of the muscles and give them the ability to lift 2000 lbs over their heads.

Again, the rhetoric above does not negate the fact that Mr. Gates has to have enough money set aside for each person to whom this offer is extended.
It is only just and right and is the very reason he has to have legal papers. If he is taken to court he prove the 'validity' of his offer.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ.

And God is praised for His mercy and compassion.

No doubt, and AMEN!!!

 

[webdog]

So, does that mean you believe Jesus' command to "be ye therefore perfect" was insincere because it is impossible to comply?

I called you out on your use of this passage on another thread, and you never responded. Context rules! It is NOT speaking of "being" perfect...go back and re-read it.

 

[Tom Butler]

I called you out on your use of this passage on another thread, and you never responded. Context rules! It is NOT speaking of "being" perfect...go back and re-read it.

I read the context. What does perfect mean, if not the common definition? When Jesus speaks of the Father in heaven being perfect, how is he defining perfect. Does he mean the Father is mature and complete? I don't think so.

 

[webdog]

I read the context. What does perfect mean, if not the common definition? When Jesus speaks of the Father in heaven being perfect, how is he defining perfect. Does he mean the Father is mature and complete? I don't think so.

The context is speaking of love, and the foreign concept of loving one's own enemies. Be ye therefore perfect is clearly speaking of this "perfect" love, not actually being perfect. Why would God command a God only attribute from man? He wouldn't. It would be idolatry.

 

[wattie]

Check out the Greek New Testament word for perfect in Strongs Concordance-

in most cases it refers to maturity and completeness.. not sinlessness.

1Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

G2675
καταρτίζω
katartizō
kat-ar-tid'-zo
From G2596 and a derivative of G739; to complete thoroughly, that is, repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust: - fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect (-ly join together), prepare, restore.

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

 

[canadyjd]

....What is it that makes the offer of salvation to the non-elect a valid offer of salvation for those whom God did not make a way to be saved?

The same thing that makes the offer of salvation to those who keep the O.T. law a valid offer. It is the promise of God to grant salvation that validates the offer, even though no one was able to keep the O.T. law.

If Jesus did nothing for them regarding salvation then God can not honestly state, believe and be saved.

I disagree. God can honestly and genuinely offer salvation to all who place their faith in His Son, Jesus. That everyone rejects because of their nature (without the intervention of God) does not make the offer less genuine.

God promises. That validates the offer.

How are you saved JD?

Holy Spirit regenerates me, then convicts me of the truth of my own sin, the wrath of God, and Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I respond with repentance and faith in Jesus, whereby I appropriate salvation and indwelling Spirit is given as the pledge that the promise of God to grant salvation is valid.

peace to youraying:

 

[Allan]

The same thing that makes the offer of salvation to those who keep the O.T. law a valid offer. It is the promise of God to grant salvation that validates the offer, even though no one was able to keep the O.T. law. I disagree. God can honestly and genuinely offer salvation to all who place their faith in His Son, Jesus. That everyone rejects because of their nature (without the intervention of God) does not make the offer less genuine.

I would suggest you study the Law a little more and all those promises God made to Isreal, that if the kept His law, and statutes He will bless them in various things. example - taking of the promised land.

Secondly, you are still stuck in your OWN wording. You can't side step it because you keep walking into it head-on over and over again.

You state God will save those who place their faith 'in Jesus'.
Now please tell me what this - in Jesus - means.

God promises. That validates the offer.

Ok fine, let's talk about this
God promise is based upon what?
Can God save ANYONE apart from Christ's propitiation?

You are stating that God is offering to save the non-elect and is promising to so if they place their faith 'in Christ'.
Again, what does - in Christ - mean or more specifically what is it about Him they are to put their faith in?

This is and always will be your achilles heel in this arguement.
God promise is based upon something, and His offer is based upon His desire for something. This desire of His does not necessitate a decree but it does reflect the reason for the geniuness of offer of salvation and what He has done to said offer true to any and all who will believe.

Holy Spirit regenerates me, then convicts me of the truth of my own sin, the wrath of God, and Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I respond with repentance and faith in Jesus, whereby I appropriate salvation and indwelling Spirit is given as the pledge that the promise of God to grant salvation is valid.

Again, you are stuck with the same bone in your throat.
What are you refering to when you state you placed your faith in Jesus?
What is it that Jesus did that you are placing your faith in Him for?

 

[Aaron]

What validates the offer of salvation found in the gospel of Jesus Christ? These are the two ideas that came out. You may have your own.

No sure what you mean by "validate." If you mean what makes it true, I would have to answer that Truth just is. It validates itself.

If you mean, what bears witness that one is saved? It's the Holy Spirit.

 

[canadyjd]

No sure what you mean by "validate." If you mean what makes it true, I would have to answer that Truth just is. It validates itself.

If you mean, what bears witness that one is saved? It's the Holy Spirit.

The question arises out of the debate over the extent of the atonement.

On the one hand, some that favor universal atonement claim the offer to the "unelect" (as they define calvinism... not of the elect) is not a genuine offer if Christ had not made the provision for them on the cross.

Therefore, the provision of Christ's sacrifice is what validates the offer as genuine. If Christ had not died for their sins (the non-elect) the offer is not genuine, and is therefore a lie.

On the other hand, some that favor limited atonement maintain that the promise of God to grant salvation to those who come to Jesus Christ in faith is what validates the offer as genuine, since God cannot lie.

For example, the rich young ruler asked Jesus what he must do to obtain eternal life. The question is specifically about salvation (eternal life). Jesus told the rich young ruler (matt. 19) to "if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Was this offer of eternal life a genuine offer? I believe it was and is. If you can keep the commandments, you would enter into eternal life, because God promised He would grant you that life. No one, however, can keep the commandments. That doesn't invalidate God's promise or make it less than genuine.

In the same way, when God promises salvation to all that come to Jesus in faith, it is His promise that makes the offer genuine. All that come will receive eternal life. The fact that no one can come to Christ without the intervention of God does not make the offer any less genuine, but displays the mercy and compassion of God in bringing His chosen into eternal life.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

I would suggest you study the Law a little more and all those promises God made to Isreal, that if the kept His law, and statutes He will bless them in various things. example - taking of the promised land.

Or... we can just examine what Jesus said to the rich young ruler in Matt. 19: "....if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." That is an offer of salvation. You have already stated that you believe it to be a genuine offer, otherwise it would have made Jesus a liar.

Now, you and I both know that no one is able to keep the commandments. What validated the offer (what made it genuine) is God's promise. The promise of salvation remained valid, even if the person is not able to meet the obligations of the offer.

You are stating that God is offering to save the non-elect and is promising to so if they place their faith 'in Christ'.

You are missing my point. God promises to save all who place their faith in Jesus Christ, His Son. No one is able. All reject the offer. Just like no one was able to keep the law. The offer was valid. It was genuine. The ability to accept the offer does not detemine whether the offer is valid.

Now, God enables those He has chosen (His elect) to place their faith in Christ. He then keeps His promise to grant them eternal life.

Again, what does - in Christ - mean or more specifically what is it about Him they are to put their faith in?

I could repeat the gospel, but we aren't specifically talking about the gospel. We are talking about what validates the offer of salvation found in the gospel... what makes it genuine.

I have stated and explained that I believe the promise of God to grant salvation to all who believe is the basis for the genuineness of the offer.

I understand that you believe that if Christ didn't make provision for the non-elect on the cross, then the offer is not genuine for the non-elect.

What you have failed to explain, however, is why you believe the offer of Jesus to the rich young ruler to keep the commandments if he wanted to enter into eternal life is genuine, even though no one is able to keep the commandments without the intervention of God.

And yet, you believe the offer of salvation to all who place faith in Jesus is not genuine for the non-elect (from the reformed view), even though no one is able to come to Christ without the intervention of God.

peace to youraying:

 

[Winman]

What you have failed to explain, however, is why you believe the offer of Jesus to the rich young ruler to keep the commandments if he wanted to enter into eternal life is genuine, even though no one is able to keep the commandments without the intervention of God.

Jesus wasn't offerning the rich young ruler eternal life through keeping the commandments, he was making the young man aware he was a sinner. The young man said he had kept "all" of the commandments since his youth. Then Jesus told him to give up his wealth and come follow him and he would have treasure in heaven. That was an offer of salvation to the young man, Jesus was asking him to trust him.

But the young man was breaking several commandments. He did not love God with all his heart and mind, he loved his wealth and possessions more. He was covetous. Jesus made him aware of his sin.

Jesus was not offering him eternal life through works. No man is saved by works in either the OT or NT. Abraham was saved by faith. All OT saints were saved by faith.

You are misinterpreting this passage.

 

[Aaron]

You're both right.

 

[Allan]

Or... we can just examine what Jesus said to the rich young ruler in Matt. 19: "....if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." That is an offer of salvation. You have already stated that you believe it to be a genuine offer, otherwise it would have made Jesus a liar.

We need not examine anything else to know what God means and intends..

However it seems to appear you wish to espouse that Jesus is teaching two ways of salvation 1. by faith and the other 2. by works a part from faith.
You appear to 'assume' that Jesus was teaching - keep the Law and you will have eternal life but that is NOT what Jesus was saying and the rest of the story bears out His real intent (of which Winman illistrates). Remember, context is important, and many of your Reformed brethren agree with me

You are abusing the text for a proof-text which neither supports your assumption nor validates your position.

Did not Jesus state:

Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

And did Jesus not also qualify what eternal life is here:

Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Thus what He was stating to the young ruler was not what you are assuming as it wold contradict what He says.

You are missing my point. God promises to save all who place their faith in Jesus Christ, His Son.

No, you are not completing your own point. I do not disagree that God promises to save all who place faith in Christ. Why do you not finish addressing the rest of your statement? It appears what you seem quite afraid to answer is - faith in what ABOUT Christ? This is part and central to your own point and you never leave it out. So I must ask -

What is it about 'Christ' that assures us of the salvation which God has promised those who believe in Him?
The two are linked and is the reason our faith must be in Christ in order for God to save us and not before.

Come on JD..
Why does God not state He is going to save those who believe and leave it at that?
Why is it that Christ is wrapped up so intimately in the salvation offer, what does He have to do with it?
After all it is 'in Him' that the non-elect must place their faith right?
But for what purpose? Why?
What is it that He has done so that they might place their faith in Him believing in what He said He has done.

My point is this. Would Gods offer be valid if He said - if you will believe in JD, you will be saved. Is this offer valid to the elect and non-elect alike?
If so, why? What did you do to succure that salvation being offered?
If not, Why not? What makes this offer not valid to both the elect and non-elect?

No one is able. All reject the offer.

I biblically disagree. But with a point of distinction, I will agree that no one by or of themselves are able but that God must intervene to 'enable'. Without His grace there will be no faith. However this has nothing to do with the issue of our discussion.

Just like no one was able to keep the law.

I have already shown you where it has been and the example I used was - Israel.
God's promise to them was (paraphrasing) If you keep my laws and statutes, I will bless you and you shall take the [promised] land but if you don't keep my laws and statutes I will curse you and you. What you seem to forget is that we CAN keep the law by faith for in the Law He has provided an atonement. However I do AGREE that no one can keep the law a part from faith.

The offer was valid. It was genuine. The ability to accept the offer does not detemine whether the offer is valid.

That is your hobby horse, and I have said nothing in any statement which reflects this as part of the issue at hand. It is actually of no consequense in the matter.

Please answer me this dear brother - Can a person be saved apart from the work of Christ Jesus?
If not then the offer to save someone for whom Christ made no privision is a lie since our salvation is solely based upon the work of Christ for us.
Thus if ther was no work, there is no possibility for salvation and thus No Offer can truthfully be made to that person. This has nothing to do with being able to believe or not, but has everything to do with what Christ did and the very reason a person MUST place faith in Him TO BE saved. No work of Christ - no valid offer of salvation is possible - even for God, since He set up the rules.

I could repeat the gospel, but we aren't specifically talking about the gospel.

NO.. Please do because that is EXACTLY what we are talking about - the good new of salvation through Jesus Christ's work on the Cross on our behalf. This is the 'GOSPEL' and is the 'GOSPEL OFFER' to all men everywhere.

We are talking about what validates the offer of salvation found in the gospel... what makes it genuine.

I have stated and explained that I believe the promise of God to grant salvation to all who believe is the basis for the genuineness of the offer.

Yes, and your assumption leaves out half of the whole.
It isn't about faith (regardless of which view one holds to) The promise of God is based upon the work of Christ. Thus to whom the salvation is offered is directly proportionate to the work of Christ regarding that salvation. It is the ONLY reason God can promise it to anyone.

One can not make a genuine offer to give someone something they do not have to give. If God has not made provision through Christ for their salvation He can not Justly make any offer to save them since salvation is based soley upon the work of Christ.

What you have failed to explain, however, is why you believe the offer of Jesus to the rich young ruler to keep the commandments if he wanted to enter into eternal life is genuine, even though no one is able to keep the commandments without the intervention of God.

There is no need to explain it as it has nothing to do with what you assume. You are proof-texting the passage. Also great many other reformed men agree with me on this, not you. Christ was not offering salvation based upon works but was showing the young ruler that their 'assumption' that eternal life was contained therein was wrong. Jesus stated that eternal life is not in the scriptures (workd by the law) but in Him.


Once More:

What makes an offer valid - illistration:
Lottery - If you will purchase a ticket from Willey's Market (the offer) you 'will win' 1 million dollars (the promise).

NOW - Does the promise you to win validate the offer made - not by itself.
If there is no provision of money made to succure the promise 'will win', then promise is a lie.
A promise made with no provision to support it, is and always will be - a lie.
Just as it is if I promse to be at you house tomorrow but do not intend to actaully be there - it is a lie.
If God says He will save them but never made any provision to - it to is a lie, regardless of if they have the ability to believe.

The same is said regarding salvation:
Salvation - If you will believe in Jesus (the offer) you will be saved (the promise)

 

[webdog]

You are missing my point. God promises to save all who place their faith in Jesus Christ, His Son. No one is able. All reject the offer.

Don't you see your own contradiction, jd? If "no one is able" to accept...rejecting the offer is an equal impossibility!

Or... we can just examine what Jesus said to the rich young ruler in Matt. 19: "....if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." That is an offer of salvation.

Galatians 2:16, 21 and many others say you are wrong.

 

[MB]

This question came up on another thread and I wanted to explore it further.

What validates the offer of salvation found in the gospel of Jesus Christ? These are the two ideas that came out. You may have your own.

Does the "provision" made by Jesus Christ's death validate the offer of salvation? That is, to be a genuine offer, Jesus must have died for the sins of everyone to whom the gospel is offered, otherwise the offer is a lie. God, therefore, must have provided the "provision" for salvation in order for the offer to be genuine. The offer can be rejected and the provision will not become a reality


Or... does the "promise of God" to grant salvation to everyone who places their faith in Jesus Christ validate the offer of salvation found in the gospel? That is, the offer is a genuine offer to all who hear, even though no one can come unless God draws them. The offer is distinct from the provision. All who come will be saved, but only those God draws will come.


I believe the latter and I give the comparison of the offer of salvation to those who keep the Law (i.e. rich young ruler). God made the offer of salvation to those who keep the O.T. Law without providing a provision for keeping that Law.

The offer is genuine, based on God's promise to save all those who keep the Law, even though the provision to keep the law was not given.

peace to youraying:

I believe Salvation is offered to everyone by the drawing and everyone is drawn, according to Jn 12:32. Some may never hear the gospel because they rebeled against the drawing. The rebellion of some always seems to be on guard. I believe God validates the offer of Salvation when men submit to His righteousness. Rom 10:1-4 It's the same for the Jew as it is for the Gentiles.
If a man has kept the Law the battle between his flesh and spirit has already been won. I don't believe there is any man who has no sin except Christ. There is only those who claim to have kept the Law.
MB

 

[canadyjd]

Don't you see your own contradiction, jd? If "no one is able" to accept...rejecting the offer is an equal impossibility!

That is silly. Failure to accept the offer, directly or indirectly, is still a rejection of the offer. The reason for the rejection doesn't negate the fact it is a rejection of the offer.

There is no contradiction. The offer is distinct from the ability.

In the Law, God told the Jews what it takes to be righteous before Him. If they could have kept it, they would have had eternal life.

That is exactly what Jesus told the rich young ruler. Nothing anyone has said changes the words of Jesus..... "if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments".

That is an offer of salvation.

Of course Jesus was attempting to get the man to see his own sins. Of course Jesus was leading the man to the conclusion he couldn't keep the law and needed a savior. I have never denied that.

But that doesn't negate the offer, because the validity of the offer is based on the promise of God.... "if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

That is silly. Failure to accept the offer, directly or indirectly, is still a rejection of the offer. The reason for the rejection doesn't negate the fact it is a rejection of the offer.

Do you hold to double predestination? Do you believe those not the elect were created for the sole purpose of destruction? By passing them over...according to your logic...He did.

 

[canadyjd]

Do you hold to double predestination? Do you believe those not the elect were created for the sole purpose of destruction? By passing them over...according to your logic...He did.

I do not hold to double predestination. I do not believe the sole purpose of their creation is destruction.

I disagree with your conclusion that my logic leads to that belief, just as you would disagree with the assertion that unlimited atonement means universal salvation, regardless of what people do or believe.

peace to youraying:

 

[Winman]

That is exactly what Jesus told the rich young ruler. Nothing anyone has said changes the words of Jesus..... "if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments".

That is an offer of salvation.

Jesus was not offering this young man salvation through works. Salvation has always been of faith. Abraham was saved through faith 430 years before the law was given, and Paul explains that the law does not make void the promise through faith. If you could earn your way to heaven by keeping the commandments, that would void the promise of faith.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

The purpose of the law was to make us aware of sin and bring us to Christ.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The promise was made before the law. Salvation was always through faith and not the law. The law was to make a person aware of sin so they would come by faith to Christ.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

This young man undoubtably falsely believed he could earn his way to heaven through keeping the law, and that is why Jesus said "thou knowest the commandments". But it was not a promise.

If Jesus had said "if you can flap your arms fast enough you can fly to heaven", would that be a promise? No, it is a conditional statement meant to make a person aware of the impossibility of getting to heaven through their own effort and works. This young man thought he was keeping all the commandments, but he was breaking the very first, that you love God with all your heart, mind, and soul. He loved his wealth and possesions more than God.