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What validates the offer of salvation?
- Thread starter canadyjd
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
The one does not negate the other. The law was an offer of salvation that could not be kept. Therefore, it served the purpose of revealing sin and pointing to Christ as Savior, instead of actually providing salvation to anyone.
The law revealed the requirements of God for righteousness before Him. The fact no one could keep the law does not negate the fact that it was an offer of salvation.
Was Jesus untruthful when He told the man "if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments?"
peace to you
raying:OldRegular
Well-Known Member
God made the offer of salvation to those who keep the O.T. Law without providing a provision for keeping that Law.
The offer is genuine, based on God's promise to save all those who keep the Law, even though the provision to keep the law was not given.
peace to you
Where in Scripture is salvation guaranteed for those keeping the Law. The Apostle Paul tells us:
Romans 3:20. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
There is no conflict in Scripture.
The one does not negate the other. The law was an offer of salvation that could not be kept. Therefore, it served the purpose of revealing sin and pointing to Christ as Savior, instead of actually providing salvation to anyone.The law revealed the requirements of God for righteousness before Him. The fact no one could keep the law does not negate the fact that it was an offer of salvation.
Was Jesus untruthful when He told the man "if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments?"
peace to you
Galatians 4:21, 22 - "Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."
Doesn't sound like the law was an offer salvation to me. It sounds like God gave the law specifically in order to later bring the gospel. In fact, that's what the very next verse says.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Paul answers what validated the offer as follows:
Romans 4:25. Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
The provision GOD made for Salvation through Jesus Christ is HIS choice of some to Salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Matt. 19:16 "And behold, one came to Him and said, 'Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?' (17) And He said to him, 'Why are you asking Me about what is good? The is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." (emphasis mine)
The question is how does a person obtain eternal life. The answer that Jesus gave was "keep the commandments".
I agree there is no contradiction because the promise of eternal life is distinct from the ability to meet the requirements.
peace to you
raying:
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Jesus didn't lie to him. That is my point. If he could have kept the commandments, he would have eternal life, because Jesus told him he would have eternal life if he kept the commandments. The promise of God validates the offer.
The offer is distinct from the ability to meet the requirements.
peace to you
raying:Jesus wasn't telling the rich young ruler how to get to heaven, He was telling him about discipleship. He told the ruler to sell what he had and give to the poor, take up his cross, and follow Him. Just a short time earlier He talked about discipleship in the same terms: deny self, take up your cross, and follow after me. That's essentially what He was telling the rich young ruler.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
The man asked Jesus how to have eternal life. Jesus told him, "if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments". If you don't believe Jesus was telling him how to have eternal life, do you think Jesus was being dishonest when He told him that? I do not believe Jesus was being dishonest. Jesus told him the truth.
The fact he didn't yet understand that he couldn't keep the commandments (and no one else can either) and needed to let go of his wealth and follow Jesus Christ as his Savior doesn't change the fact that Jesus told him to keep the commandments if he wanted to have eternal life.
peace to you
raying:Actually, if a person could keep the commandments 100% thoughout their entire lifetime, they would not die, as the wages of sin is death.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Death is the wage or penalty for sin, so if a person could go their entire lifetime without sinning, they would not spiritually die. So Jesus was telling the absolute truth.
Now, you will argue that it is impossible for a person to go without sinning. That is not actually so. No man is compelled or forced to sin. Never in scriptures does God speak to man as though it is impossible for him to do good and not sin. In fact, the exact opposite is ALWAYS shown. When God gives men commands to do good, it is always in the sense that they have the ability to obey.
God tells men a multitude of times in the scriptures to turn from evil and do good, and always in the sense that man has the ability to do so if he is willing.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
The teaching that man is absolutely depraved and utterly enslaved to sin is not scriptural, it is the invention of man. God ALWAYS speaks to men as though they had the ability to obey him and do right if they so choose. Show me anywhere where the scriptures ever say a man is utterly unable to do right.
So, Jesus's statement was genuine and sincere. If a man could keep all the commandments he would not die.
But practically, all men do sin, and so no man can earn salvation. Therefore the only hope all men have is salvation through Christ.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
And you will not accept this, but I think God's foreknowledge is shown in this verse. You and I were not born when these scriptures were written, but God had already concluded all men under sin. So you have only two options there, either God decreed all men would sin (which is blasphemy), or God in his foreknowledge saw that all men would sin.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Death is the wage or penalty for sin, so if a person could go their entire lifetime without sinning, they would not spiritually die. So Jesus was telling the absolute truth.
Now, you will argue that it is impossible for a person to go without sinning. That is not actually so. No man is compelled or forced to sin. Never in scriptures does God speak to man as though it is impossible for him to do good and not sin. In fact, the exact opposite is ALWAYS shown. When God gives men commands to do good, it is always in the sense that they have the ability to obey.
God tells men a multitude of times in the scriptures to turn from evil and do good, and always in the sense that man has the ability to do so if he is willing.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
The teaching that man is absolutely depraved and utterly enslaved to sin is not scriptural, it is the invention of man. God ALWAYS speaks to men as though they had the ability to obey him and do right if they so choose. Show me anywhere where the scriptures ever say a man is utterly unable to do right.
So, Jesus's statement was genuine and sincere. If a man could keep all the commandments he would not die.
But practically, all men do sin, and so no man can earn salvation. Therefore the only hope all men have is salvation through Christ.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
And you will not accept this, but I think God's foreknowledge is shown in this verse. You and I were not born when these scriptures were written, but God had already concluded all men under sin. So you have only two options there, either God decreed all men would sin (which is blasphemy), or God in his foreknowledge saw that all men would sin.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
OR, I understand no one is able. I understand it is not possible to keep the Law (in our fallen state). I haven't disputed that at all.
The contention is whether the keeping of the law was an offer of salvation from God to His people. When Jesus told the man "if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments", was He telling the truth?
I know Jesus was attempting to make him realize he couldn't/hadn't kept the law, of his own sin, of his need for a savior... but was Jesus telling the truth about entering into (eternal) life, if he kept the commandments? I believe He was.
Now, if Webdog is right, Jesus wasn't telling the truth to the man. Jesus was, in fact, giving the man a false hope of salvation (by telling him he could enter into life by keeping the law) if, in fact, he couldn't enter into eternal life if he kept the law. The other motivations of Jesus that have been cited (trying to get him to see he couldn't keep the law, or recognize his sin and need for a savior) would be a manipulation of the truth.
So, the offer of salvation is distinct from the ability to accept it, because it is based on God's promise to grant salvation.
peace to you
I am not convinced that Jesus Christ was offering "eternal life" even though that was the question asked. I have been unable to find in the Old Testament any reference to keeping the commandments and eternal life. The references I found generally just refer to "life". That may be the context in which Jesus Christ was answering.
If you know of any Old Testament Scripture that promises eternal life or salvation with keeping the commandments I would like to know. I did find one Scripture that mentioned salvation and commandments but no promise.
Psalms 119:166 LORD, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Whether you believe the O.T. references are referring to "life" or "eternal life", really doesn't change the facts. God made a conditional promise to them. If you keep the commandments, I will grant you life (eternal life).
No one was able to keep the commandments. Not even one person. God knew they couldn't keep the commandments when He made the promise, but because He made the promise, the offer was valid. That God would use the inability of men to keep the commandments to show them their need for grace, does not invalidate the offer.
The validity of the offer is distinct from the ability to accept the offer.
The same is true of the offer of salvation through Jesus Christ. The promise is salvation to everyone who believes. The offer is valid because God has promised, not because anyone/everyone has the ability to believe.
The validity of the offer is distinct from the ability to accept the offer.
peace to you
raying:That is just not so. No one has to sin. Sin is a choice we all make willingly. It is true that everyone does and will sin, but it is not true that we are absolutely enslaved to sin.
I have sinned plenty in my life, and at times I've tried to rationalize it away, but never did I truly have to sin. I could have always done the right thing and I knew it. And I think if you are honest you will say the same thing.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Well, I'm not sure of your distinction between "absolutely enslaved to sin" and plain ole "enslaved to sin". Jesus clearly speaks of men being enslaved to sin, not "servants" of sin as you have stated.
And given that you believe that everyone does and will sin, it seems your own testimony is that everyone is "absolutely" enslaved to sin... since you can't give an example of anyone that isn't.
I won't let you put me in a corner like that, Winman. I disagree with you and you cannot claim that I am dishonest if I don't agree with you.
A person is not able to "always do the right thing", as you have said. In fact, without the presence of indwelling Holy Spirit that comes through faith in Jesus Christ, they cannot please God at all. Their best efforts are filthy rags before God.
Quite frankly, the more a person realizes how enslaved they are/were to sin.... how much control sin had over their lives... how pathetic their so called "free-will' really is... the more they will recognize and appreciate the grace of God in Jesus Christ and the freedom we now have to live our lives for Him in the power of Holy Spirit.
peace to you
raying:Jesus did not say a person is caused to sin because they are enslaved to sin, he said exactly the opposite, that the person who sins makes themselves a servant to sin. Read the scripture again.
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
If you are a slave to sin, it is because you have yielded yourself to obey sin. You are not forced to sin, the devil is not holding a gun to your head.
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
If you are a slave to sin, it is because you have yielded yourself to obey sin. You are not forced to sin, the devil is not holding a gun to your head.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
And yet, all sin. And since all sin, all are slaves to sin (not servants.. the word is "doulos" and it means "slave")
The slave obeys the master. The slave does the will of the master.
And Paul's point is Romans 6 is that since your will has been freed from the power of sin by Jesus Christ, don't yeild yourself to sin anymore. You have died to sin, live to Christ.
peace to you
raying: