What Was Adam Pre-Fall

[InTheLight]

I am probably wrong but I think that when God sacrificed animals to make fur garments for Adam and Eve, God covered their sin with a sacrifice.

By the time God covered them with garments A&E had already fallen and were spiritually dead.

And a close reading of the account does not say that God killed or sacrificed animals to make the garments. It says, "God made garments of skin".

 

[Reformed1689]

In effect, he lost his salvation. How can this be explained?

No, he did not lose his salvation. He wasn't saved. There was nothing pre-fall to be saved from.

 

[Reformed1689]

Jesus said he would never leave us nor forsake us and no man can pluck you out of my hand.

Again, post-fall. You can't treat things post fall as if they were the same pre fall.

 

[Yeshua1]

So was the result of the Fall a spiritual death?

yes, as in Adam all tasted spiritual and physical death, and in the second Adam all in Him experience spiritual life, and a coming glorification of their bodies!

 

[Yeshua1]

Before the Fall, Adam was in a state of innocence. He was under the Covenant of Works. As long as Adam did not disobey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would remain in a state of innocence and not die.

Many disagree with us in that CoW....

 

[Yeshua1]

In a past thread I explained it this way:

"Pre-fall man was able to sin and able not to sin (Latin, posse non peccare, posse peccare). Before Adam disobeyed God, he was a true moral free agent. Sin has not yet infected the human race. If Adam had not sinned he would not have died. Scripture tells us that God told Adam that if he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that he would die (Genesis 2:16-17). Conversely, if Adam did not eat of the tree he would not die but would live. Theologians call this the Covenant of Works because life was contingent on Adam's obedience. We know that Adam did eat of the tree (Genesis 3:6) and thus incurred the curse of death (Genesis 3:19). So, prior to the Fall, Adam was able not to sin and able to sin."

this is where libertine free will holders crash off the tracks, as they sincerely see us still having that full free will to decide that Adam forfeited away in the Fall!

 

[InTheLight]

Again, post-fall. You can't treat things post fall as if they were the same pre fall.

Then why are we using the term "spiritually alive" for pre-Fall Adam when there was no such thing until after the Fall?

 

[Yeshua1]

So you would argue that yes, Adam was spiritually alive prior to the fall?

he was in a personal relationship with God....
You might call it being "in Covenant" with God...

 

[JonC]

I think your definition needs tweaking. People nowadays without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are spiritually dead, yes. But what about in the old testament days?

Abraham believed the Lord, and He credited it to him as righteousness. (Gen 15:6). Abraham's faith justified him. I would say he was spiritually alive. The Bible doesn't say he was indwelt with the spirit. By your definition, absent this indwelling of the Spirit he is spiritually dead.

Elijah called down fire from heaven after praying to God. I would say he was spiritually alive. The Bible doesn't say he was indwelt with the spirit. By your definition, absent this indwelling of the Spirit he is spiritually dead.

I'm sure there are many more examples in the OT--Moses, Daniel, Nehemiah, etc.

I still view it as a state of being "spiritually dead". The Spirit opened their eyes to spiritual truth (as with Peter) but at the same time there was a separation that does not exist with the "new-birth".

When we look at Adam there were things that we can associate with the Spirit (God walked with Adam) and the "flesh" Adam sinned. But this is true of all men. David was a man after God's heart (which seems to indicate the activity of the Spirit) but at the same time sinned horribly . We can say this of every man (Adam, even pre-fall Adam, is no different).

The issue goes a bit beyond @Reformed observation about applying NT terms to the OT. We are applying realities that may not have been present in the OT (Christ being a "life giving Spirit", the "age to come" which is also "now", this "rebirth").

The question about Adam's spiritual state prior to the fall is itself foreign to Scripture. It is purely philosophical (and philosophy by definition). It is fun to consider, but it would be very foolish to build upon.

 

[JonC]

Think of it as if he was on probation....

To clarify: you are saying think of the period between the time God created Adam to the time Adam sinned is like a period of probation?

 

[church mouse guy]

By the time God covered them with garments A&E had already fallen and were spiritually dead.

And a close reading of the account does not say that God killed or sacrificed animals to make the garments. It says, "God made garments of skin".

Interesting point that you make. Genesis 3:21 (KJV) Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

 

[church mouse guy]

I think that the Garden of Eden was heaven on earth. If Adam had obeyed, we still would be in the Garden of Eden. I think that the time in the Garden of Eden was very short. Since Adam disobeyed, the earth must be destroyed completely and the situation will be resolved once and for all by putting believers in Heaven, the third heaven, no?

 

[Noah Hirsch]

This is a continuation of Spiritual life and the myth Adam (and man) of dying spiritually

If Adam was spiritually dead after the Fall, what was he before the Fall?

He would have been spiritual alive and unalienated from God without any positive inclination to sin.

 

[JonC]

Yes. Of course. Adam was created in the moral likeness of God (Genesis 1:26). In order for that to happen, Adam required more than just physical life. He also needed spiritual life. That is where the moral likeness of God comes into play.

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Can you expound on this a little? Specifically, what is the reason to determine that the "image of God" is primarily related to right or wrong behavior (why morality)?

 

[JonShaff]

What was Adam pre-fall? Let's see what the Scriptures say...

1 Corinthians 15
42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Adam was "from creation", from the earth, whereas those who are a part of the New Covenant are "Created from Christ" (the Life-giving Spirit).

2 Corinthians 5
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.


Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 4:24
24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.


Galatians 6:15
15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

 

[Reformed]

Theologians use the term Imago Dei to describe mankind being created in the image of God. In what way was mankind created Imago Dei? Mankind (Adam) was created with a mind capable of rational thought. This is different than all other living creatures God created. Mankind was created in a state of innocence. He had no culpability or familiarity with sin. In this regard, he was created in the moral likeness of the triune God. Adam was created with both a physical body and an immaterial spirit. It is the immaterial part of man that is made in God's image. It is the immaterial part of man that has an intuitive morality. It cannot be the flesh that is made in God's image because God is spirit. Even the Son of God had not been manifest in human form during the creation event.

No other passage of scripture emphasizes the moral nature of the Imago Dei more clearly than Romans 1:18-20:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." (emphasis mine)

The only way mankind can be without excuse is to possess the moral capacity to know right from wrong. Adam has this capacity when he was created. Ergo, the moral nature of the Imago Dei is beyond refutation.

 

[JonShaff]

he was created in the moral likeness of the triune God.

The only way mankind can be without excuse is to possess the moral capacity to know right from wrong. Adam has this capacity when he was created. Ergo, the moral nature of the Imago Dei is beyond refutation.

How so?

Edit--The Romans 1 passage said that creation testifies to the realities of God--perceiving came into play after Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil.

 

[Yeshua1]

I still view it as a state of being "spiritually dead". The Spirit opened their eyes to spiritual truth (as with Peter) but at the same time there was a separation that does not exist with the "new-birth".

When we look at Adam there were things that we can associate with the Spirit (God walked with Adam) and the "flesh" Adam sinned. But this is true of all men. David was a man after God's heart (which seems to indicate the activity of the Spirit) but at the same time sinned horribly . We can say this of every man (Adam, even pre-fall Adam, is no different).

The issue goes a bit beyond @Reformed observation about applying NT terms to the OT. We are applying realities that may not have been present in the OT (Christ being a "life giving Spirit", the "age to come" which is also "now", this "rebirth").

The question about Adam's spiritual state prior to the fall is itself foreign to Scripture. It is purely philosophical (and philosophy by definition). It is fun to consider, but it would be very foolish to build upon.

We are spiritual dead in Him, and now spiritual alive in Christ...

 

[Yeshua1]

To clarify: you are saying think of the period between the time God created Adam to the time Adam sinned is like a period of probation?

extended testing....

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No, he did not lose his salvation. He wasn't saved. There was nothing pre-fall to be saved from

Yep! We read, 'And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed' (Genesis 2:25).
To put this theologically, they had no covering for their sin, but that didn't matter because they had no sin. They were lords of God's creation - it was given to Adam to name all God's creatures (Genesis 2:19), and all the vegetation given to him as well (Genesis 1:29) - with a mandate to spread out from Eden and to fill the whole world (1:28).

So what went wrong? In a word, sin. Adam's sin gets him kicked out of Eden and the whole of the rest of the Bible is about how we get back there in an even better position than Adam. I'm not given to quoting Roman Catholics, but Newman has it right here:

O loving wisdom of our God!
When all was sin and shame,
A second Adam to the fight
And to the rescue came.