What Was Adam Pre-Fall

[Particular]

You have rejected free-will in the past, saying it is man having power over God. Now are you saying that Adam had power over God?

Wow, that's a massive misunderstanding, JonC.

 

[JonC]

Wow, that's a massive misunderstanding, JonC.

No. That was actually his argument on another topic about free-will. I'm not saying I agree, but the argument itself is inconsistent (Adam had spiritual life but lost it due to his free-will places what Scripture calls the will of the flesh over this "spiritual life").

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I put this on another thread just now, but I think it belongs here (too many similar threads!)
Colossians 3:10 came to mind.
'.....And have put on the new man [NASB 'self'] who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him.' [Ephesians 4:24 is similar]
This is speaking of Christians and they are being renewed or renovated so that they are made like God, according to His image., in accordance with how God made man in the beginning. So Adam and Eve were given the true knowledge of God when they were created, and this knowledge is restored to believers. Therefore it must have been lost at the Fall.

 

[JonC]

Another issue is the Tree of Life.

This is a reason I believe Adam did not possess spiritual life (I associate the Tree of Life with spiritual life). Had Adam "eaten" of this tree he would have everlasting life.

So I view Adam as created flesh (with a human spirit Scripture calls "the flesh" in the NT). Adam could freely eat of the Tree of Life or disobey and eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam was tempted by his desires and transgressed God's command. Sin is the reason Adam was separated from the Tree of Life. Had Adam eaten of that tree he would not have eaten of the other (whoever eats of the Tree of Life has everlasting life).

 

[JonC]

Then why are we using the term "spiritually alive" for pre-Fall Adam when there was no such thing until after the Fall?

What do you think about the Tree of Life (that gives everlasting life)?

I tend to think of Adam as created innocent with a human spirit. There are two choices - death and life. Adam chose death.

I think when we create these expansive narratives we miss the point of Scripture and allow theory to trump what Scripture is telling us.

 

[Reformed1689]

He has a good point, David.

Scripture says very little about Adam pre-sin. The idea that Adam had "spiritual life" is a philosophical (not a biblical) argument. Scripture defines this life as of "imperishable seed" and being God's Spirit (or Christ) in us. This idea that "spiritual life" is itself fellowship with God is not in the bible. While it may be true (I believe fellowship with God dependent on spiritual life,not that Life itself) it is a forced narrative. We do not know that Adam would have never died had he ate of the fruit (some believe that God is sovereign to the extent to negate these "ifs", but this excludes Covenant Theology). Also the idea that Adam died spiritually instantly and later died physically is not in the Bible. It could be true, but it is a theological narrative that is not in Scripture.

The issue is really not holding these extra ideas. The problem comes in when we start building on these things as necessary. It has been suggested that not teaching Adam as possessing spiritual life and then loosing this spiritual life makes it impossible to evangelize others. Consider that for a moment. The suggestion bases evangelism itself on something that, while perhaps true, is not actually in God's Word.

Post for me again the verses you use to define Spiritual Life.

 

[Reformed1689]

This is a reason I believe Adam did not possess spiritual life (I associate the Tree of Life with spiritual life).

Doesn't that contradict your definition of Spiritual life?

 

[Reformed1689]

Then why are we using the term "spiritually alive" for pre-Fall Adam when there was no such thing until after the Fall?

I have not claimed that there was no such thing until after the fall.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonShaff,

Hello JonS....how have you been?

What was Adam pre-fall? Let's see what the Scriptures say...

1 Corinthians 15
42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

1 cor15 is dealing with this question....

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

It is not about Adam as far as his spirit is concerned.
First a physical body, then a spiritual body

 

[JonC]

Doesn't that contradict your definition of Spiritual life?

No. I view Spiritual life as the Spirit of God indwelling man. I do not believe either Tree to magic trees. In my understanding Adam was created with a human spirit and ultimately it was demonstrated that human spirits do not merit divine righteousness (Adam was created in the image of God but still less than God). He had a choice but he was always going to "miss the mark". Sin separates man from God. Logically there was a time prior to sin that Adam was sinless (Adam was created "upright", God did not author Adam's sin). This does not necessitate two human natures in Adam.

 

[JonC]

JonShaff,

Hello JonS....how have you been?



1 cor15 is dealing with this question....

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

It is not about Adam as far as his spirit is concerned.
First a physical body, then a spiritual body

The issue is the passage itself is not looking at Adam but Christ. Adam is the natural in the passage, Christ the spiritual. You horribly skew that passage by reading into it your theology.

 

[JonC]

Post for me again the verses you use to define Spiritual Life.

I used several. God will remove man's heart of stone and give him a new heart, a new spirit, put His spirit in them (I believe this is speaking of one thing - the new birth). Christ became a life-giving Spirit. First is the natural (Adam), second the spiritual (Christ). Spiritual life is of the "imperishable seed". Christ is this Life.

 

[Iconoclast]

The issue is the passage itself is not looking at Adam but Christ. Adam is the natural in the passage, Christ the spiritual. You horribly skew that passage by reading into it your theology.

Evidently this is another passage you do not understand.
Speaking of Adam first having a physical body, then a spiritual body.
Verse 44 is very clear. Did you not read this verse?

 

[JonC]

Evidently this is another passage you do not understand.
Speaking of Adam first having a physical body, then a spiritual body.
Verse 44 is very clear. Did you not read this verse?

Again, I am not sure why you have to insult me every time I ask you a question.

The reason I am asking is not that I do not understand the verse but that I understand the verse as typically interpreted by Christian commentators to be dealing with the order of resurrection. The body which is sown is not the body which is to be. The body is sown a natural body and is raised a spiritual body. The first man, Adam, became a living soul. The last Adam became a life giving spirit. The spiritual is not first, but the natural, then the spiritual.

I have not encountered the interpretation that you offer. I am sure that your interpretation is extraordinarily clear to you, but as it departs from the normal reading of the passage I am asking you how you arrive at your conclusion.

In this passage you view the "last Adam" which became "a life giving spirit" to Adam rather than Christ. What I am suggesting is that you may be viewing this verse through a formed theory and twisting what the verse is saying to suit your philosophy rather than holding to what is actually in Scripture. Since you depart from the normal reading and from most (all that I know of) Christian interpretations of this passage I think it reasonable to ask how you arrive at your interpretation.

 

[InTheLight]

Evidently this is another passage you do not understand.
Verse 44 is very clear. Did you not read this verse?

Your response, paraphrased:

#5. YOU ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND THE DOCTRINES OF GRACE;

 

[JonC]

Your response, paraphrased:

#5. YOU ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND THE DOCTRINES OF GRACE;

Yes, that is what he is saying. But he could say it without the insults.

I never claimed to be the most astute fella. But I know which end of the knife not to hold (the pointy end), so I get by.

I do not know why he has to start every reply with an insult. I guess it's the Calvinism showing through .

 

[JonShaff]

In this passage you view the "last Adam" which became "a life giving spirit" to Adam rather than Christ.

This part of the passage is what i really was trying to highlight concerning the topic of this thread. I do not believe God is restoring us back to Adam, nor do i believe the Scriptures teach that. I believe that Christ gave us life and that is something unique and different from what happened in the Garden. Adam was a part of physical Creation. We are a part of the Eternal Creation in Christ. Once again, we are not getting restored back to Adam--we are being made new in Christ. This is the plain teachings of Scripture. I pray this helps.

 

[Iconoclast]

Your response, paraphrased:

#5. YOU ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND THE DOCTRINES OF GRACE;

I think it is something else hindering the understanding ITL.
The verse could not be clearer.
There is a natural body, there is a spiritual body.
Natural first, then the Spiritual.
Jesus took upon Himself a body of flesh,that could die, and be raised as the first fruits out from among the dead
Hebrews2:11-16

 

[Yeshua1]

You have rejected free-will in the past, saying it is man having power over God. Now are you saying that Adam had power over God?

No, just that before he became spiritually dead in his sin nature, adam had what we would call real free will!

 

[Yeshua1]

This part of the passage is what i really was trying to highlight concerning the topic of this thread. I do not believe God is restoring us back to Adam, nor do i believe the Scriptures teach that. I believe that Christ gave us life and that is something unique and different from what happened in the Garden. Adam was a part of physical Creation. We are a part of the Eternal Creation in Christ. Once again, we are not getting restored back to Adam--we are being made new in Christ. This is the plain teachings of Scripture. I pray this helps.

Adam was glorious when first created though, correct?