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Featured What Was Adam Pre-Fall

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Reformed1689, Feb 10, 2020.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Is this passage about man being without excuse speaking about men who are spiritually alive?
     
    #41 JonC, Feb 11, 2020
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That would be where Adam would have had spiritual life, for God created him in that state to have a perfect harmony with Himself and His creation.
     
    #42 Yeshua1, Feb 11, 2020
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, for if they were not spiritually dead, they would have glorified God!
     
    #43 Yeshua1, Feb 11, 2020
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    So we are saying Scripture says these spiritually dead people are without excuse because they are created in God's image and this proves Adam had "spiritual life"?

    No one questions whether or not Adam had a natural spirit. The question is whether Adam had God's Spirit (spiritual life). Scripture says "no", first the natural and then the spiritual.
     
    #44 JonC, Feb 11, 2020
  5. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    No, but there is a notable exception when referring to Adam. Adam was created innocent of sin but he was still created Imago Dei. He had an intimate relationship with God that was not yet tainted by sin. As for the rest of humanity post-Adam? The rest of humanity is still created Imago Dei but that image is blurred and obscured because of sin. However, it is not so blurred and obscure that mankind does not have an inherent morality that cannot tell right from wrong.
     
    #45 Reformed, Feb 11, 2020
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  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    wasn't the real essense of becoming spiritual dead for them was to for the first time put themselves above God?
     
    #46 Yeshua1, Feb 11, 2020
  7. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    To be fair, this is a narrative that we've created--right wrong or indifferent.
     
    #47 JonShaff, Feb 11, 2020
  8. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I find it interesting that this spiritually Dead Adam was receptive to the voice of God. Just sayin'
     
    #48 JonShaff, Feb 11, 2020
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Only Jesus and Adam had sinless humanity state, Adam by his creation, and Jesus by being conceived by the Holy Spirit in womb , so they would be special cases!
     
    #49 Yeshua1, Feb 11, 2020
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Due to God Himself giving you ears to hear and heart to respond!
     
    #50 Yeshua1, Feb 11, 2020
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  11. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Genesis 3:8. 'And they heard the sound [or 'voice' NKJV margin] of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.'
     
    #51 Martin Marprelate, Feb 11, 2020
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  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    They heard and were scared to death, same way the Israelites were at mt Sinai!
     
    #52 Yeshua1, Feb 11, 2020
  13. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Again, talking about post-fall.
     
    #53 Reformed1689, Feb 11, 2020
  14. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    How is this a narrative we have created?
     
    #54 Reformed1689, Feb 11, 2020
  15. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    What Scripture states that "Adam had intimate relationship" with God? We can infer, but that's not what the text says. Or does it?
     
    #55 JonShaff, Feb 11, 2020
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  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Adam was not scared of God before he sinned....
     
    #56 Yeshua1, Feb 11, 2020
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    So the passage does not provide support that Adam was created with what we would (in the New Testament) call "spiritual life". Do you have evidence that prior to Adam's eyes being opened (prior to a knowledge of good and evil) Adam can be said to have been a "moral" being?
     
    #57 JonC, Feb 11, 2020
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    he had real free will.....
     
    #58 Yeshua1, Feb 11, 2020
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    He has a good point, David.

    Scripture says very little about Adam pre-sin. The idea that Adam had "spiritual life" is a philosophical (not a biblical) argument. Scripture defines this life as of "imperishable seed" and being God's Spirit (or Christ) in us. This idea that "spiritual life" is itself fellowship with God is not in the bible. While it may be true (I believe fellowship with God dependent on spiritual life,not that Life itself) it is a forced narrative. We do not know that Adam would have never died had he ate of the fruit (some believe that God is sovereign to the extent to negate these "ifs", but this excludes Covenant Theology). Also the idea that Adam died spiritually instantly and later died physically is not in the Bible. It could be true, but it is a theological narrative that is not in Scripture.

    The issue is really not holding these extra ideas. The problem comes in when we start building on these things as necessary. It has been suggested that not teaching Adam as possessing spiritual life and then loosing this spiritual life makes it impossible to evangelize others. Consider that for a moment. The suggestion bases evangelism itself on something that, while perhaps true, is not actually in God's Word.
     
    #59 JonC, Feb 11, 2020
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You have rejected free-will in the past, saying it is man having power over God. Now are you saying that Adam had power over God?
     
    #60 JonC, Feb 11, 2020
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