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What Was Adam Pre-Fall

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JonC

JonC

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Reformed said:
Theologians use the term Imago Dei to describe mankind being created in the image of God. In what way was mankind created Imago Dei? Mankind (Adam) was created with a mind capable of rational thought. This is different than all other living creatures God created. Mankind was created in a state of innocence. He had no culpability or familiarity with sin. In this regard, he was created in the moral likeness of the triune God. Adam was created with both a physical body and an immaterial spirit. It is the immaterial part of man that is made in God's image. It is the immaterial part of man that has an intuitive morality. It cannot be the flesh that is made in God's image because God is spirit. Even the Son of God had not been manifest in human form during the creation event.

No other passage of scripture emphasizes the moral nature of the Imago Dei more clearly than Romans 1:18-20:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." (emphasis mine)

The only way mankind can be without excuse is to possess the moral capacity to know right from wrong. Adam has this capacity when he was created. Ergo, the moral nature of the Imago Dei is beyond refutation.
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Is this passage about man being without excuse speaking about men who are spiritually alive?
 
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Yeshua1

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Reformed said:
Theologians use the term Imago Dei to describe mankind being created in the image of God. In what way was mankind created Imago Dei? Mankind (Adam) was created with a mind capable of rational thought. This is different than all other living creatures God created. Mankind was created in a state of innocence. He had no culpability or familiarity with sin. In this regard, he was created in the moral likeness of the triune God. Adam was created with both a physical body and an immaterial spirit. It is the immaterial part of man that is made in God's image. It is the immaterial part of man that has an intuitive morality. It cannot be the flesh that is made in God's image because God is spirit. Even the Son of God had not been manifest in human form during the creation event.

No other passage of scripture emphasizes the moral nature of the Imago Dei more clearly than Romans 1:18-20:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." (emphasis mine)

The only way mankind can be without excuse is to possess the moral capacity to know right from wrong. Adam has this capacity when he was created. Ergo, the moral nature of the Imago Dei is beyond refutation.
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That would be where Adam would have had spiritual life, for God created him in that state to have a perfect harmony with Himself and His creation.
 
JonC

JonC

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Yeshua1 said:
No, for if they were not spiritually dead, they would have glorified God!
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So we are saying Scripture says these spiritually dead people are without excuse because they are created in God's image and this proves Adam had "spiritual life"?

No one questions whether or not Adam had a natural spirit. The question is whether Adam had God's Spirit (spiritual life). Scripture says "no", first the natural and then the spiritual.
 
Reformed

Reformed

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JonC said:
Is this passage about man being without excuse speaking about men who are spiritually alive?
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No, but there is a notable exception when referring to Adam. Adam was created innocent of sin but he was still created Imago Dei. He had an intimate relationship with God that was not yet tainted by sin. As for the rest of humanity post-Adam? The rest of humanity is still created Imago Dei but that image is blurred and obscured because of sin. However, it is not so blurred and obscure that mankind does not have an inherent morality that cannot tell right from wrong.
 
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Yeshua1

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Martin Marprelate said:
Yep! We read, 'And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed' (Genesis 2:25).
To put this theologically, they had no covering for their sin, but that didn't matter because they had no sin. They were lords of God's creation - it was given to Adam to name all God's creatures (Genesis 2:19), and all the vegetation given to him as well (Genesis 1:29) - with a mandate to spread out from Eden and to fill the whole world (1:28).

So what went wrong? In a word, sin. Adam's sin gets him kicked out of Eden and the whole of the rest of the Bible is about how we get back there in an even better position than Adam. I'm not given to quoting Roman Catholics, but Newman has it right here:

O loving wisdom of our God!
When all was sin and shame,
A second Adam to the fight
And to the rescue came.
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wasn't the real essense of becoming spiritual dead for them was to for the first time put themselves above God?
 
JonShaff

JonShaff

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Yeshua1 said:
wasn't the real essense of becoming spiritual dead for them was to for the first time put themselves above God?
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I find it interesting that this spiritually Dead Adam was receptive to the voice of God. Just sayin'
 
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Yeshua1

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Reformed said:
No, but there is a notable exception when referring to Adam. Adam was created innocent of sin but he was still created Imago Dei. He had an intimate relationship with God that was not yet tainted by sin. As for the rest of humanity post-Adam? The rest of humanity is still created Imago Dei but that image is blurred and obscured because of sin. However, it is not so blurred and obscure that mankind does not have an inherent morality that cannot tell right from wrong.
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Only Jesus and Adam had sinless humanity state, Adam by his creation, and Jesus by being conceived by the Holy Spirit in womb , so they would be special cases!
 
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Martin Marprelate

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Yeshua1 said:
We can see the devastating effect of sin in Genesis 5:1-3.
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JonShaff said:
I find it interesting that this spiritually Dead Adam was receptive to the voice of God. Just sayin'
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Genesis 3:8. 'And they heard the sound [or 'voice' NKJV margin] of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.'
 
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JonC

JonC

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Moderator
Reformed said:
No, but there is a notable exception when referring to Adam. Adam was created innocent of sin but he was still created Imago Dei. He had an intimate relationship with God that was not yet tainted by sin. As for the rest of humanity post-Adam? The rest of humanity is still created Imago Dei but that image is blurred and obscured because of sin. However, it is not so blurred and obscure that mankind does not have an inherent morality that cannot tell right from wrong.
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So the passage does not provide support that Adam was created with what we would (in the New Testament) call "spiritual life". Do you have evidence that prior to Adam's eyes being opened (prior to a knowledge of good and evil) Adam can be said to have been a "moral" being?
 
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Yeshua1

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JonC said:
So the passage does not provide support that Adam was created with what we would (in the New Testament) call "spiritual life". Do you have evidence that prior to Adam's eyes being opened (prior to a knowledge of good and evil) Adam can be said to have been a "moral" being?
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he had real free will.....
 
JonC

JonC

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davidtaylorjr said:
How is this a narrative we have created?
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He has a good point, David.

Scripture says very little about Adam pre-sin. The idea that Adam had "spiritual life" is a philosophical (not a biblical) argument. Scripture defines this life as of "imperishable seed" and being God's Spirit (or Christ) in us. This idea that "spiritual life" is itself fellowship with God is not in the bible. While it may be true (I believe fellowship with God dependent on spiritual life,not that Life itself) it is a forced narrative. We do not know that Adam would have never died had he ate of the fruit (some believe that God is sovereign to the extent to negate these "ifs", but this excludes Covenant Theology). Also the idea that Adam died spiritually instantly and later died physically is not in the Bible. It could be true, but it is a theological narrative that is not in Scripture.

The issue is really not holding these extra ideas. The problem comes in when we start building on these things as necessary. It has been suggested that not teaching Adam as possessing spiritual life and then loosing this spiritual life makes it impossible to evangelize others. Consider that for a moment. The suggestion bases evangelism itself on something that, while perhaps true, is not actually in God's Word.
 
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