What was/is God doing

[canadyjd]

I find it funny that you continue to deny the basis of your theological position. Do some research into the basis of your view.

What points of calvinism do you disagree with? Do you deny the DoG/TULIP why or why not? Does man have an actual free will with which he can evaluate the truths of scripture and the various means that God uses to draw people to him or not?

Why do you deny God the ability to draw people to Himself for salvation as He sees fit. Why must He adhere to your theological view? Are people saved through hearing the gospel, of course. But I am not so arrogant as to say that is the only way He can do it.

You have still not answered how those in the OT or in closed nations today were saved. I just trust the God of creation to saved those that call out to Him. Why you as a Christian continue to deny this I do not understand, but you do.

I find it funny that you are completely oblivious to the fact you demonstrate your ignorance of the truth of scripture, in general, and reformed theology in particular, every single time you post.

I have answered all of your questions concerning OT Saints and “closed” countries on numerous occasions.

You simply ignore what I tell you, or more likely, you simply don’t care what is said as long as you can regurgitate your unbiblical, man-made philosophy and pretend what you say doesn’t make a mockery of our Lord Jesus and His sacrifice.

And again, by claiming many are saved having never heard the gospel you prove beyond any doubt you are ignorant of the truth of scripture

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Do you have any scripture that supports your hardline restrictivism? That all who have not heard the gospel are bound for an eternity of torment?

Several passages support the Truth the gospel of Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation. Quite frankly, I’m amazed this is even a debate on a Baptist site.

I Corinthians 1 tells us God is well pleased, by the foolishness of the message preached (Christ crucified) to save those who believe.

Romans 1 tells us the general revelation of God found in creation has been rejected by everyone… none are righteous, not even one.

Since general revelation brings no one into a right relationship with God, God chose special revelation.

Special revelation is God directly intervening in someone’s life to reveal Himself. Moses and the burning bush. Jacob wrestling the man near the water, visions, dreams, donkey’s talking, etc…

Hebrews 1 tells us that although God revealed Himself in those various and sundry ways in times past, in these final days God has spoken to us through His Son Jesus.

Peter tells us there is no other name in heaven or on earth by which one must be saved. That is exclusionary to any other method of salvation.

There is much more

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

I find it funny that you are completely oblivious to the fact you demonstrate your ignorance of the truth of scripture, in general, and reformed theology in particular, every single time you post.

I have answered all of your questions concerning OT Saints and “closed” countries on numerous occasions.

You simply ignore what I tell you, or more likely, you simply don’t care what is said as long as you can regurgitate your unbiblical, man-made philosophy and pretend what you say doesn’t make a mockery of our Lord Jesus and His sacrifice.

And again, by claiming many are saved having never heard the gospel you prove beyond any doubt you are ignorant of the truth of scripture

peace to you

What you have done is give me the reformed calvinist story line. You have not dealt with the truth of scripture. Why do you think one should accept your view as correct when it does not comport with scripture. I will trust scripture and you need to show how your view aligns with the word of God.

I am not ignoring what you say I am just disagreeing with it.

I have to ask how does saying God is the one that sets the requirements for salvation make a mockery of Christ. If God wants to save those that respond to His creation or the conviction of the Holy Spirit then who are you to say that He can not do that. You seem to think God has to abide by your views, just a tad arrogant of you @canadyjd.

Still have not dealt with OT saints or those that respond to the Holy Spirit conviction have you. You just show how little you actually trust in our sovereign God.

 

[Silverhair]

Several passages support the Truth the gospel of Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation. Quite frankly, I’m amazed this is even a debate on a Baptist site.

I Corinthians 1 tells us God is well pleased, by the foolishness of the message preached (Christ crucified) to save those who believe.

Romans 1 tells us the general revelation of God found in creation has been rejected by everyone… none are righteous, not even one.

Those that hear the gospel message and believe in the Messiah will be saved. But then you go on to make a inclusive statement that is not warranted. Romans 1:18-21 tells us that man can reject the revelation of God but it does not tell us that all men of all time do so, that is something that you read into the text.
Even now none are righteous, we are accounted as righteous because of our being in Christ. If we were to be righteous in ourselves we would have to always keep God commands and none of us can claim that. So the oft use comment "none are righteous, not even one" does ring rather hollow after all.

Since general revelation brings no one into a right relationship with God, God chose special revelation.

Special revelation is God directly intervening in someone’s life to reveal Himself. Moses and the burning bush. Jacob wrestling the man near the water, visions, dreams, donkey’s talking, etc…

Only God can bring someone into a right relationship with Him. Those that cry out to God because of the various means He uses to draw people to Himself can be brought into a right relationship with God. Who are you to tell God what He can do and further why would you as a Christian want to deny anyone salvation?

Hebrews 1 tells us that although God revealed Himself in those various and sundry ways in times past, in these final days God has spoken to us through His Son Jesus.

Peter tells us there is no other name in heaven or on earth by which one must be saved. That is exclusionary to any other method of salvation.

There is much more

peace to you

But where did you find in Hebrews that God has stopped using various means? Does God change, does He not desire all to come to salvation? If the only way they could be saved was by hearing the gospel then what do you do with all those in closed countries? Does He not want them to be saved?

And yes there is no other name by which we can be saved. We can not be save by Buddha, Muhammad, Confusius or any other man. We can only be saved by God and He has chosen to save those that believe in Him.

 

[Van]

Being, before the foundation of the world it was preordained 1 peter 1:19,20, that, from the foundation of the world rev 13:8, the Christ as of a Lamb without spot and without blemish would be slain, [suffer the death] then God must have planed to create Adam in a manner that would be subject to bringing, the death, the result of, the sin, into the world.

Yes or No?

WHY?

Before the foundation of the world, why would God need sin and death to come into the world?

What is man [singular and the son of man [singular] that thou visited him.

IMHO God was using the flesh and blood man, created in God's image, to deal with something that preexisted the man. From Eps 6:12 Some, spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;

I believe, for the purpose of God, Adam was created to being the death through the sin into the world. For the purpose of destroying the devil and his works.

All these questions have been answered numerous times.

1. Yes the Second Person of the Trinity was chosen to be the Lamb of God before creation.

2. Your understanding of what Revelation 13:8 says is based on a mistranslation. This has been presented dozens of times.

3. Revelation 13:8 says names were not written (and others presumably written) in the Lamb's book of Life since the foundation of the world. Thus no individual was chosen for redemption before creation. Therefore the election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate, not individual.

4. Yes, before creation God planned to redeem believers from the penalty of Sin. Thus He choose His Redeemer, His Lamb of God, before Adam had sinned.

5. Yes Adam was created with the capacity to sin or not to sin, and therefore could have chosen not to eat the fruit. Thus God did not cause Adam to sin, but did allow Adam to sin, even providing means and the testing mechanisms (Eve and Satan).

 

[kyredneck]

Several passages support the Truth the gospel of Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation. Quite frankly, I’m amazed this is even a debate on a Baptist site.

Quite frankly, I think you've been hanging with @Silverhair too much, you've totally misrepresented me. In no way, shape, fashion, or form have I ever posited that Jesus Christ is not necessary for salvation. Shame on you.

I've got to prepare for a trip, will be back early next week, and may return to this.

 

[Baptizo]

Before the foundation of the world, why would God need sin and death to come into the world?

Isaiah 43:7 - Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

Psalm 115:3 - But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Because He is a God whom desires to be glorified. That being said...

Psalm 5:4 - For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Ezekiel 33:11 - Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

He will accomplish this by demonstrating His wrath on the wicked and His mercy on those who repent.

 

[canadyjd]

Quite frankly, I think you've been hanging with @Silverhair too much, you've totally misrepresented me. In no way, shape, fashion, or form have I ever posited that Jesus Christ is not necessary for salvation. Shame on you.

I've got to prepare for a trip, will be back early next week, and may return to this.

I was responding to this post…

Do you have any scripture that supports your hardline restrictivism? That all who have not heard the gospel are bound for an eternity of torment?

Perhaps I misunderstood you. You appear to be asking for scripture that supports the necessity of the gospel for salvation.

If that isn’t what you meant by “hardline restrictionism and … all that have not heard the gospel are bound for eternal torment” then please correct my misunderstanding.

Enjoy your trip and may God protect you and yours as you travel.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

@canadyjd you keep saying your not a calvinist, your reformed. That is just putting a different name on the same old theological view.

What points of calvinism do you disagree with?

Do you agree with the DoG/TULIP why or why not?

Does man have an actual free will with which he can evaluate the truths of scripture and the various means that God uses to draw people to him or not?

Why do you deny God the ability to draw people to Himself for salvation as He sees fit?

Why must He adhere to your theological view?

How were those in the OT or those in closed nations today saved?

You keep saying I do not understand your reformed theology so show me how your theology deals with these questions.

You think your view is correct, show me why I should follow it.

 

[canadyjd]

@canadyjd you keep saying your not a calvinist, your reformed. That is just putting a different name on the same old theological view.

What points of calvinism do you disagree with?

Do you agree with the DoG/TULIP why or why not?

Does man have an actual free will with which he can evaluate the truths of scripture and the various means that God uses to draw people to him or not?

Why do you deny God the ability to draw people to Himself for salvation as He sees fit?

Why must He adhere to your theological view?

How were those in the OT or those in closed nations today saved?

You keep saying I do not understand your reformed theology so show me how your theology deals with these questions.

You think your view is correct, show me why I should follow it.

I have explained my views, supported by scripture, on several occasions, and I have answered all the questions you have in this post.

Why should I spend the time to explain it to you again?

You cannot accurately state my views, despite all the effort I have expended to explain it to you.

You don’t have to agree with me. But for a conversation to the place, you should be able to accurately state my views, which you cannot.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

I have explained my views, supported by scripture, on several occasions, and I have answered all the questions you have in this post.

Why should I spend the time to explain it to you again?

You cannot accurately state my views, despite all the effort I have expended to explain it to you.

You don’t have to agree with me. But for a conversation to the place, you should be able to accurately state my views, which you cannot.

peace to you

You say your not a calvinist but hold to calvinist views so I asked you those questions. You may have thought you explained your views but obviously you did not do it very well.

It sees that no two reformed/calvinsts have the same view and even then the views change like the weather. So to try and state what your views are would be a exercise in futility as I see it.

But what I do see is that you do not even want to defend your position. Why are you reluctant to do so?

I would think you would jump at the chance to prove your theological view.

What points of calvinism do you disagree with?

Do you agree with the DoG/TULIP why or why not?

Does man have an actual free will with which he can evaluate the truths of scripture and the various means that God uses to draw people to him or not?

Why do you deny God the ability to draw people to Himself for salvation as He sees fit?

Why must He adhere to your theological view?

How were those in the OT or those in closed nations today saved?

You keep saying I do not understand your reformed theology so show me how your theology deals with these questions.

You think your view is correct, show me why I should follow it.

 

[canadyjd]

…..
Why do you deny God the ability to draw people to Himself for salvation as He sees fit?

How were those in the OT or those in closed nations today saved?

God has revealed how He “sees fit” to save people in 1 Corinthians that He was “well pleased” to save people by the foolishness of the message preached: Christ and Him crucified.

You reject scripture and make a mockery of our Lord and His sacrifice every time you say many are saved having never heard the gospel.

Again….. the OT saints were saved by faith, as we are, in the promises of God concerning the coming Messiah.

Jesus said Abraham saw His day and rejoiced. Hebrews teaches us the OT saints looked forward to the promise of the coming Messiah and would not be “made perfect” apart from us.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

God has revealed how He “sees fit” to save people in 1 Corinthians that He was “well pleased” to save people by the foolishness of the message preached: Christ and Him crucified.

You reject scripture and make a mockery of our Lord and His sacrifice every time you say many are saved having never heard the gospel.

Again….. the OT saints were saved by faith, as we are, in the promises of God concerning the coming Messiah.

Jesus said Abraham saw His day and rejoiced. Hebrews teaches us the OT saints looked forward to the promise of the coming Messiah and would not be “made perfect” apart from us.

peace to you

Your response dos not surprise me but it does sadden me. I would think that you would actually trust in the sovereignty of God and yet you deny that He can save outside of your particular view. He see fit to save those that trust in Him whether OT or NT times.

I do not deny people can be saved through hearing the gospel but you make a mockery of scripture when you deny God the ability to be God.

Again...OT saints were saved by faith in God. The evidence of things not seen Heb 1:1 - The existence of God; of heaven; of angels, and seen Heb 1:3 - His creation, His miracles.

Those that lived and trusted in God whether before or after the cross have gained approval through their faith and will be made perfect with us who having heard the gospel trusted in the risen Christ.

You want God to adhere to your theological position which actually limits His sovereignty.

I do notice that you shy away from answering the questions I asked you. You claim I do not understand your position yet you will not even answer basic questions about your view, You just expect me and others to accept it as true because you say it is.

 

[canadyjd]

Your response dos not surprise me but it does sadden me. I would think that you would actually trust in the sovereignty of God and yet you deny that He can save outside of your particular view. He see fit to save those that trust in Him whether OT or NT times.

I do not deny people can be saved through hearing the gospel but you make a mockery of scripture when you deny God the ability to be God.

Again...OT saints were saved by faith in God. The evidence of things not seen Heb 1:1 - The existence of God; of heaven; of angels, and seen Heb 1:3 - His creation, His miracles.

Those that lived and trusted in God whether before or after the cross have gained approval through their faith and will be made perfect with us who having heard the gospel trusted in the risen Christ.

You want God to adhere to your theological position which actually limits His sovereignty.

I do notice that you shy away from answering the questions I asked you. You claim I do not understand your position yet you will not even answer basic questions about your view, You just expect me and others to accept it as true because you say it is.

You do not trust God, in His sovereignty, to bring every single person He desires to salvation through the message of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

You deny the words of scripture that tells us God has ordained the preaching of the gospel as the means by which all who are saved will be saved.

You ignore scripture, and then add to it when you claim anyone, OT or NT, is saved through general revelation found in creation.

You have substituted your man-made philosophy for the Truth found in scripture. You have demanded God follow your man made philosophy of how salvation is obtained rather than mankind following the Truth found in God’s Word.

It is no wonder your man made philosophy has led you to believe the lie that many are saved having never heard the gospel.

Peace to you

 

[percho]

Rom 16:20 NET The God of peace will quickly crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

All of you miss the point of the thread.

How? How is God going to use, "them, the your, above," to crush Satan? Does it have anything to do with 1 Cor 15:20
15:26 ἔσχατος ἐχθρὸς καταργεῖται ὁ θάνατος·
The last enemy is being abolished the death

Now consider:
Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

On that third day above did the one called Satan and the devil need to be done away with. Did God already have a plan of how he was going to destroy the one called Satan and the devil and all his works. What does 1 John 3:8 say about why the Son of God was or on that third day would be, manifested?
How does Hebrews 2:14 state that would be done ?

Was Adam created for the purpose of destroying Satan the devil, through the Word made flesh?

 

[Silverhair]

You do not trust God, in His sovereignty, to bring every single person He desires to salvation through the message of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

You deny the words of scripture that tells us God has ordained the preaching of the gospel as the means by which all who are saved will be saved.

You ignore scripture, and then add to it when you claim anyone, OT or NT, is saved through general revelation found in creation.

You have substituted your man-made philosophy for the Truth found in scripture. You have demanded God follow your man made philosophy of how salvation is obtained rather than mankind following the Truth found in God’s Word.

It is no wonder your man made philosophy has led you to believe the lie that many are saved having never heard the gospel.

Peace to you

The real difference between us is that your view is that God wants to limit those that can be saved and I do not.

In Isaiah we are told to “Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near.” Should we understand that to mean wait until you hear the gospel message then you can seek and call?

God judges man for not acknowledging Him even though the truth is all around them. If He judges them for not doing it then logically they could do it even though most will not.

You seem to think the general revelation found in creation is of no value. Why?

When God says He reaches out to us all day long because He desires all to be saved do you not trust that He will save those that respond?

It seems you can not see past your theological error of God choosing a select few to be saved and this has clouded your understanding of scripture. You want to limit those that can be saved and I trust the God of the bible to expand it to His whole creation as He has indicated in scripture.

Your comment just points to your theological bias again. You are judging what God can do through your DoG rather than trusting that the God of creation can do as He wishes.

On another note. I see that you still do not want to address the questions I asked. The fact you will not do so leads me to believe there is no difference and you just want to avoid the bad press the name calvinist brings to the table. But changing the name does not change the error.

 

[canadyjd]

The real difference between us is that your view is that God wants to limit those that can be saved and I do not……

The real difference between us is that I believe what scripture says and you have substituted scripture for your man made philosophy.

You claim to embrace God’s sovereignty as long as God doesn’t act according to how His Word has declared He acts.

God’s Word clearly states God was “well pleased” to reject the wisdom of men and bring people to salvation through the foolishness of the message preached. Peter tells us there is no other name in heaven or earth by which one MUST be saved.

You have embraced the wisdom of man made philosophy that says God can save people through the gospel, but also God can save people through any number of other ways.

That makes a mockery of the cross of Christ because in declaring the gospel is not necessary for salvation, you are declaring Christ sacrifice isn’t necessary for salvation.

I doubt you are capable of understanding your grave error and will find a way to distract from the truth of your error by attacking the doctrines of grace instead of facing the truth of your grave error and repenting for making a mockery of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

The real difference between us is that I believe what scripture says and you have substituted scripture for your man made philosophy.

You claim to embrace God’s sovereignty as long as God doesn’t act according to how His Word has declared He acts.

God’s Word clearly states God was “well pleased” to reject the wisdom of men and bring people to salvation through the foolishness of the message preached. Peter tells us there is no other name in heaven or earth by which one MUST be saved.

You have embraced the wisdom of man made philosophy that says God can save people through the gospel, but also God can save people through any number of other ways.

That makes a mockery of the cross of Christ because in declaring the gospel is not necessary for salvation, you are declaring Christ sacrifice isn’t necessary for salvation.

I doubt you are capable of understanding your grave error and will find a way to distract from the truth of your error by attacking the doctrines of grace instead of facing the truth of your grave error and repenting for making a mockery of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice.

peace to you

All I hear from you is the same old comments that do not reflect the character of God. You want to limit God to your theological view and I let God be God. If God wants to save those that hear the gospel that is His choice if He wants to save those that trust in Him through other various means that He uses to draw them then that is also His choice. You in your arrogance have decided what God can and cannot do.

Gen 15:5 Then He brought him {Abram} outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

But as per usual for the reformed calvinist you still have not addressed the questions I asked you. So since you can not or will not say you disagree with the calvinist DoG then while you call yourself reformed you still are just a calvinist. That is the theology you present so using a different name does not change the reality.

 

[canadyjd]

All I hear from you is the same old comments that do not reflect the character of God. You want to limit God to your theological view and I let God be God. If God wants to save those that hear the gospel that is His choice if He wants to save those that trust in Him through other various means that He uses to draw them then that is also His choice. You in your arrogance have decided what God can and cannot do.

Gen 15:5 Then He brought him {Abram} outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

But as per usual for the reformed calvinist you still have not addressed the questions I asked you. So since you can not or will not say you disagree with the calvinist DoG then while you call yourself reformed you still are just a calvinist. That is the theology you present so using a different name does not change the reality.

All you hear from me is the same old comments that we should believe what scripture says. The message of the gospel is the only God ordained means by which people will come to salvation.

All I hear from you is that we should ignore what scripture says about Christ being the only way to salvation and embrace your man made philosophy that many are saved having never heard the gospel.

Peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

All you hear from me is the same old comments that we should believe what scripture says. The message of the gospel is the only God ordained means by which people will come to salvation.

All I hear from you is that we should ignore what scripture says about Christ being the only way to salvation and embrace your man made philosophy that many are saved having never heard the gospel.

Peace to you

Pro 2:3 Yes, if you cry out for discernment, And lift up your voice for understanding,
Pro 2:4 If you seek her as silver, And search for her as for hidden treasures;
Pro 2:5 Then you will understand the fear of the LORD, And find the knowledge of God.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

You can disagree with me all you want but you should not be disagreeing with God. You continue to deny God the right to be God. How arrogant can you be or perhaps it is just that you are blind to the truth of scripture.

But I have come to expect that from many of those on here that hold to the so called DoG/TULIP.

It is not truth that you are seeking but compliance with your view.