What We Believe...Are You Listening?!?

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Rev. G:
Chappie:
Does this mean that those who are lost did not receive a "call" that was "loud enough and strong enough" to get their attention? What makes you differ from them?

He got everyone’s attention. What makes me different from them? At this point, there is no difference, we all heard the call…

Notice your "definition": "those who practice these things are hateful to God." At best you were "hateful to God."

At best, Rev. G.. I was hateful to God. How about you. Did you hate God. Did you call him hateful names, did you do hateful things to get even with him for being God? Did the thought of him make you want to puke?

What awful things did you do for the purpose of venting your hate? Did you gossip about him behind his back? What did you know about God that caused you to hate him? What did he do that just rubbed you the wrong way.

If you hated him, surely it produced a pantheon of emotion, tell me about it...

I have never taken the time nor the energy necessary to hate God. How reasonable would it be for me to hate him, I did not even know him.

"Although they KNEW God, they did not glorify Him as God..." - A description of the lost in Romans 1.

What’s your point here? In your scripture, they knew God, but did not glorify him: (Same, same; they rejected him.) Those are the lost. I said, “I did not know him”…

While you have attempted to answer the question regarding "hating" God, you haven't told us how you came to understand spiritual truth when it was impossible for you to do so (1 Cor. 2:14).

When I submitted, God taught me. He allowed me to come just as i was. I’m still learning. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit helped a lot…

Notice the symmetry in my response. That’s what you guys need, some symmetry…

[ November 01, 2002, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[Rev. G]

He got everyone’s attention. What makes me different from them? At this point, there is no difference, we all heard the call…

Chappie, there IS a difference. You believed and they didn't. Why did you believe while they continued in unbelief?

When I submitted, God taught me.

How could you submit when you were still a "natural man" who "could not understand" spiritual truths(1 Cor. 2:14)? How could you submit to something you didn't understand? For that matter, how could you submit to God while you were still at enmity with Him (Rom. 8:7-9)?

What brought you to submit?

Rev. G

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Rev. G:
He got everyone’s attention. What makes me different from them? At this point, there is no difference, we all heard the call…

Chappie, there IS a difference. You believed and they didn't. Why did you believe while they continued in unbelief?

That is not what you asked me rev. G. Did you understand my first answer? OK, why did I believe and they did not. I believed because the evidence convinced me that Christ was telling the truth.

Why did they not believe? Rev. G., I could give you my guestimation, yet you would recognize it for what it was would you not. Unfortunately, I am not privy to the hearts of men. I suggest that in order to get a more valid answer, perhaps you should find some that did not believe and ask them why. The reasons will turn out to be as varied as the number of people that you ask…

When I submitted, God taught me.

How could you submit when you were still a "natural man" who "could not understand" spiritual truths(1 Cor. 2:14)? How could you submit to something you didn't understand? For that matter, how could you submit to God while you were still at enmity with Him (Rom. 8:7-9)?
What brought you to submit?

Even today, Rev. G., do you understand all spiritual truths. Spiritual truths help us to understand how to walk with God. Physical truths teach us that we need God. How could I submit while I was still at enmity with God? When I believed God based on the physical evidence and reasonableness of what God was teaching; God made that possible.

Who brought me to a point of submission? God did it!!!!! He brought me, he did not force me.

How about my question for you in my last post. Did you ever hate God? I then proceeded to ask a group of questions.

I would love to hear your answer...

[ November 01, 2002, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[Rev. G]

I believed because the evidence convinced me that Christ was telling the truth.

So, why is it that you were convinced that Christ was telling the truth and the others were not convinced of it? What made you to differ from the others?

Spiritual truths help us to understand how to walk with God. Physical truths teach us that we need God. How could I submit while I was still at enmity with God? When I believed God based on the physical evidence and reasonableness of what God was teaching; God made that possible.

You end this with "God made that possible." I agree. However, would you please tell me HOW God made that possible?

Who brought me to a point of submission? God did it!!!!! He brought me, he did not force me.

I do believe that God brought you to a point of submission. HOW did He get you there? BTW, I never said that He forced you, nor would I.

Rev. G

 

[Rev. G]

Well, Chappie?

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Rev. G:
I believed because the evidence convinced me that Christ was telling the truth.

So, why is it that you were convinced that Christ was telling the truth and the others were not convinced of it? What made you to differ from the others?

Hello Rev. G.
Is the truth acceptable. Here is your answer again. I believed because the evidence convinced me that Christ was telling the truth. What made me different is that I accepted, they did not... Really, it's that simple... As for why others did not acccept, that i cannot provably answer. Why not get your answer straight from the horses mouth. Ask some that did not believe.

Spiritual truths help us to understand how to walk with God. Physical truths teach us that we need God. How could I submit while I was still at enmity with God? When I believed God based on the physical evidence and reasonableness of what God was teaching; God made that possible.

You end this with "God made that possible." I agree. However, would you please tell me HOW God made that possible?

On a mountain far away, stood an old rugged cross.
The emblem of suffering and shame.
But I loved that old cross
Where the dearest and best.
For a world of lost sinners was slain.

That helped more than you can ever know, yet to top it off, the gospel: The word of God unto salvation. And then there was the Holy Spirit.

Who brought me to a point of submission? God did it!!!!! He brought me, he did not force me.

I do believe that God brought you to a point of submission. HOW did He get you there? BTW, I never said that He forced you, nor would I.

Well he just sat there looking all beautiful, wonderful, compssionate, loving, righteous, just, and holy: And he had all this power, yet when i looked into his eyes, all I could see was his love.

Then I saw me in his reflection, and I was all dirty, detestable, nasty, and sinfully un-holy. And I was ashamed. I began to struggle to get out of the mire, but I could not. So he reached down and picked me up: And he told me, that tho my sins be as scarlet, he would wash me white as snow. But I said, Lord I am not worthy. He said, I know, but I am worthy to wash you. His goodness far out weighed my sins. So he cleaned me up, turned me around, set my feet on solid ground.

And dat's da truth....

Well, Rev. G. How did he get you to where you are???

[ November 02, 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[Rev. G]

I believed because the evidence convinced me that Christ was telling the truth. What made me different is that I accepted, they did not... Really, it's that simple... As for why others did not acccept, that i cannot provably answer. Why not get your answer straight from the horses mouth. Ask some that did not believe.

Well, you were convinced of the truth. Why is it that you have been convinced and others have not been? You ask me to ask them. You miss the point....

Were you more intelligent so that you were convinced and they were not?

Were you more wise?

Were you more tender-hearted?

More spiritual?

What makes you to differ from them?

 

[BobRyan]

The real contention between us, that is between "Calvinists" and "Arminians", is over the magnitude of sin (total depravity, if you will).

That is an untrue statement. "Free Will" opposes Calvinism in BOTH cases.

IF one denies the doctrine of total depravity and argues for FREE WILL - they "oppose Calvinism".

IF one accepts the doctrine of free will but allows that the DRAWING of John 12:32 is SUFFICIENT to "ENABLE" what depravity "DISABLES" in terms of establishing free will - then that TOO opposes Calvinism.

There is no hope in pretending that only one of those cases of "Free will" opposes the Calvinist doctrine.

So - back to the point - the issue is NOT the starting condition of man - it IS the emphasis on John 12:32 (and the like) saying EITHER that "God DRAWS ALL MANKIND unto HIM" or that "God draws ALL TYPES of mankind - ie the FEW of Matt 7".

BOTH groups "can" agree on total depravity and both can agree that the John 12:32 DRAWING is sufficient (At a minimum) to "ENABLE" what depravity "DISABLEs" in terms of choice.

Which leaves you with the classic problem already illustrated on a number of threads when we allow the argument to advance to this point.

It gets back to the predicatable problem of Calvinism having to "redefine ALL MANKIND" down to "ALL TYPES of mankind - such that it is only the arbitrarily selected FEW of Matt 7".

And then - as some Calvinists have noted - "declaring that God Fails" if beings enabled to choose - do not choose God (Adam, Lucifer or fallen humanity ENABLed to choose)

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 02, 2002, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[Rev. G]

The issue really isn't free will - because "Calvinists" assert that individuals have "free will" (free moral agency). The question is, is "free will" contingent upon one's depravity or not? "Calvinists" say yes, "Arminians" no.

You still haven't dealt with the fact that the "drawing" (Gr.) can also be translated (and elsewhere is translated) "drag."

Both groups cannot agree on total depravity, because the Arminians don't really hold to it (regardless of what one states about "drawking").

There has yet to be an "Arminian" to fully explain why those who are saved differ from those who remain in their rebellion.

Rev. G

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Rev. G:
There has yet to be an "Arminian" to fully explain why those who are saved differ from those who remain in their rebellion.

I cannot explain other people's unbelief. I am not most people. I do know what people say who do not believe. They choose not to believe. I've seen people who literally break before me but say they just don't want to believe. They realize they need the Saviour, but they don't want to let go.

Some people believe; some do not. Some people like chocolate. Some do not. You'll have to ask them why they don't believe. It's a choice that they make.

 

[Rev. G]

Scott,

I know that it is a choice they make, just as I know that others choose to follow Christ. Why do some choose Him and some reject Him?

Why do some like chocolate and some do not? Because of their taste buds? Because of their desire? What (Who) makes their taste buds to differ? Who makes their desires to differ?

Rev. G