What would your church do?

[Pastor Larry]

No wonder we can't tell the church from the world anymore. It's full of child molestors and all kinds of other ungodly people.

Pastor Larry's solution sounds like the Catholic church keeping all those child molesting priests.

You have not been reading my posts, if you think this is true. If you are going to reply to me, have the courtesy to reply to what I have said.

I have said from the beginning that my comments are directed at a man who is repentant. But the fact is that the church is full of sinners. We are all sinners in various stages of sanctification. I am for a pure church. I am so committed to it that if someone acted in the manner of some in this thread, they would be candidates for church discipline because they are not obedient to the command of Scripture regarding love. I would rather have a repentant child molester who desires to do right than an unloving pious church member who doesn't even know the depths of sin in their own heart.

I have never recommended keeping this man in a place of public service. He should be separated from all lchildren. He should probably be encouraged to attend another church, where the pastor and deacons are made aware of the situation. He should never be allowed to have contact with children again. He should be reported to the authorities and brought to civil justice.

But to be honest, the hatred in your heart is absolutely disgusting to me. It bears no resemblance to the church I see in Scripture. Jesus said, "By your love will all men know that you are my disciples." You are showing none. And yes, that is as bad as child molesting, because it dishonors the Father. I see nothing in your response that is biblical. Why? Does that not bother you?

And you still have not addressed the biblical teaching on forgiveness. The best you can do is attack me?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Here is the words of our Gracious, loving Savior:
I agree with Him...
Matthew 18:6
(6) But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

So how do you think that applies here? Please elaborate.

 

[Amy.G]

If a man has truly repented and is sorry for the harm he caused, he would voluntarily leave the church out of respect and Christian love for the child and the family.

 

[annsni]

I agree that there's a very different response between dealing with a repentant molester and one who is not repentant. I'll be honest, my daughter WAS molested - by another child (who was a little older - but has severe downs syndrome and therefore is a child in an adult's body now) - and I did forgive him. But that's a different story, IMO. IF someone was repentant, how would I know that it was a true repentance and one where they wanted to change their behavior? By being willing to do ANYTHING to make the victim and her family comfortable. If that meant going to another church, then so be it. That's not that great a sacrifice - NO church is worth fighting to stay when it can harm someone. It is not unforgiving to require a member to leave a church to go to another church. I think that's just smart. You're certainly not going to bring a reformed gambler to Atlantic City or a reformed alcoholic to a bar, are you? He molested this child and he needs to be taken away from that child. Period.

As for seeing a person in church, there are a few people who I have been hurt by and, trust me, when you DON'T want to see them, they're everywhere. I'm in a church of about 800-1000 people and I see a LOT of people on a Sunday - and during the week. If there was someone who would make me uncomfortable in church for whatever reason, it would greatly affect my ability to worship and learn - I know that's MY problem but I am human - as are all of us. I'm not claiming to have the ability to forgive like God can - and I know that He can help me to forgive and take away those feelings in my gut - but that doesn't always happen for whatever reason.

I KNOW that there are differences in the way a father and a mother feel for their children. I literally gave my body for my children - for years before they were born in an attempt to conceive (I know that sounds strange with 4 kids, but it's true), then the 9 months of carrying them (try THAT one! LOL) and then nursing them for from 1-2 years. I have poured myself into them in ways that my husband never could have. There is a huge difference.

 

[Pastor Larry]

If a man has truly repented and is sorry for the harm he caused, he would voluntarily leave the church out of respect and Christian love for the child and the family.

That may well be. As I have said often, that may be the best course of action, if there is another church. But it must not be because the church is unforgiving.

 

[Amy.G]

But to be honest, the hatred in your heart is absolutely disgusting to me. It bears no resemblance to the church I see in Scripture. Jesus said, "By your love will all men know that you are my disciples." You are showing none. And yes, that is as bad as child molesting, because it dishonors the Father. I see nothing in your response that is biblical. Why? Does that not bother you?

And you still have not addressed the biblical teaching on forgiveness. The best you can do is attack me?

I have no hatred in my heart. I have been talking about church discipline all along. I don't believe child molestors should be allowed to remain in the church, at least for a time. I believe that is what Paul taught in 1 Cor. 5. I believe it's imperative to separate the criminal from the victim. I have love for this little girl and her family. I resent being compared to a child molestor because I would have him expelled from the church.
What you say doesn't bother me because I think you're wrong. You have judged memuch more harshly than you have judged the disgusting child molestor.

You seem to have partial forgiveness. You say restore the man to the
fellowship...BUT...don't let him be around children, don't let him have a role of authority, keep a close eye on him, ect.....
Did he repent or not? If so, then restore him fully. What you describe is only partial restoration. Maybe you should examine your own heart before condeming mine.

We are commanded to forgive if our brother comes to us and repents. If that is what the child molestor does, then he must be forgiven, but as I've said, he should be removed from the church at least for awhile. This is what Paul was teaching.

 

[annsni]

That may well be. As I have said often, that may be the best course of action, if there is another church. But it must not be because the church is unforgiving.

Oh, I agree!! But it must be if the church is prudent.

 

[Pastor Larry]

You're certainly not going to bring a reformed gambler to Atlantic City or a reformed alcoholic to a bar, are you? He molested this child and he needs to be taken away from that child. Period.

I am not sure what a "reformed gambler" or "reformed alcoholic" are. If someone has a history with a particular sin issue, I would be very cautious in where I put them and I tell people that all the time. However, if I was with that person every time, it would be a lot less of an issue.

As for seeing a person in church, there are a few people who I have been hurt by and, trust me, when you DON'T want to see them, they're everywhere.

Try being the pastor when you gotta stand up and look at them in the face while you are preaching.

...and I know that He can help me to forgive and take away those feelings in my gut - but that doesn't always happen for whatever reason.

In talking to peopel about forgiveness, the only good response I have ever heard is "I am not God." Which is true. But I do think that many confuse "feelings my my gut" with forgiveness. Forgiveness is not about feeling but about choices we make about how we will treat someone else. That's why I think this discussion needs to be a lot more about what forgiveness is.

I KNOW that there are differences in the way a father and a mother feel for their children.

I have no doubt that there are differences. My point is that I am not sure they are stronger one way or the other. Having never been a mother, I can't testify to that. Of course since you have never been a father you can't contradict me.

But my point is that this isn't about feelings of any thing of the sort. It is about how we treat repentant sinners.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I don't believe child molestors should be allowed to remain in the church, at least for a time. I believe that is what Paul taught in 1 Cor. 5.

I don’t think that is what 1 Cor 5 addresses since it is contemplating an unrepentant sinner and we are not.

I believe it's imperative to separate the criminal from the victim.

I don’t, but I think it may be wise and the best course of action. But is not imperative in terms of the church issue. I am not talking about having them sit next to each other or any such thing.

I have love for this little girl and her family.

I do as well.

I resent being compared to a child molestor because I would have him expelled from the church.

I think there are some things you need to consider more strongly.

What you say doesn't bother me because I think you're wrong. You have judged memuch more harshly than you have judged the disgusting child molestor.

How do you know? Where here have I said one word to the child molester? You have no idea what I would say to him do you?

It reminds of some marital counseling I have done. Short story: the wife committed adultery. In talking to the husband he says “You are harder on me than her.” I said, “You are the one here. If I was talking to her, I would be talking differently. But talking to you about her sins doesn’t help you change.” In the same way here, if I were talking to this molester you have no idea what I would say. But I am talking to the people here and that causes me to adjust my comments to you.

What this man did is sin, and it is totally unacceptable. But he is not here.

You can think I am wrong all you want. My plea from the beginning has been that we respond Scripturally. Jesus had much harsher words for religious hypocrites than he did for prostitutes and tax collectors. And with good reason. Prostitutes and tax collectors knew they were sinners. Religious hypocrites were too self-centered to understand it.

You seem to have partial forgiveness. You say restore the man to the fellowship...BUT...don't let him be around children, don't let him have a role of authority, keep a close eye on him, ect.....
Did he repent or not? If so, then restore him fully. What you describe is only partial restoration. Maybe you should examine your own heart before condeming mine.

Or maybe you should take me up on the offer to discuss what forgiveness actually is. Forgiveness does not mean that the temporal consequences of sin go away. Forgiveness does not mean that we don’t take steps to protect from future sin. Having examined my own heart, I know full well. Just two months ago I had to make a call that was three years overdue because of my lack of forgiveness. It was to my best friend of 25 years to whom I had not spoken in three years. So I have wrestled with these issues, more personally than I would like to admit.

We are commanded to forgive if our brother comes to us and repents. If that is what the child molestor does, then he must be forgiven, but as I've said, he should be removed from the church at least for awhile. This is what Paul was teaching.

But that’s not what Paul was teaching. What biblical basis is there for telling a Christian who is repentant that he cannot come to church? The command is to go to church. And you are effectively telling them to disobey God.

If there is another good church in the area, then it might be wise to send him there. If not, then you work it out in the church.



Again, as I have said, the call of Christianity in action is radical. And it looks so strange because we so rarely see it.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Oh, I agree!! But it must be if the church is prudent.

But if there's not another faithful church in the area, it may not be possible.

 

[drwthohh]

This is really a tough situation here, like being stuck between a rock and a hard place. I understand what Pastor Larry is trying to say - we are to forgive as God forgives. But the question is what does that look like? The same God who gave His Son for our sins (inconceivable!) also will pour out His wrath on the earth at the end of the age. We usually tend to falter in our judgements to one end of the spectrum or another.

My Grandmother's husband of almost 40 years (my grandfather died before I was born) repeatedly molested and even raped several of my girl cousins in his own home. This man was a deacon in his local baptist church for as long as I can remember. There is no telling how many other girls he victimized over the years. Today he is pretty much confined to his home due to his poor health (he is in his 80's). Yet, my grandmother is still with him (denial is a strange thing).

Jesus commanded us to forgive to levels impossible for us to achieve in our own strength. Yet His harshest words were reserved for those who abused their power/authority over the helpless.

Personally, I'm not sure what the Godly path is here. A grown woman may be able to forgive a rapist with God's help, and maybe even face him if he was truly repentant. But this is a three year old child. And her parents.

No way should this man EVER be allowed in the presence of this child again, especially in the church. I think we need to discern the difference between forgiveness and protection of the sheep.

 

[drwthohh]

But if there's not another faithful church in the area, it may not be possible.

Then he can move or find some ministry that ministers to adults only. And the current church should see to it that his reputation follows him so other churches can protect their little ones.

The sad thing is that if this guy avoids jail time, he will likely do it again somewhere else to someone else.

 

[Jon-Marc]

If the molestor in this case has been forgiven and restored to fellowship, there is no reason to press criminal charges against him. We are told not to take our brethren to court.

And if he has been forgiven and restored, there is also no reason for him to be 'watched'. He should be free to sit next to the little girl if he wants. Otherwise, there is still forgiveness being witheld.

I totally disagree with this. The man committed a felony of child molestation, and the parents have every right to expect him to pay for that. He should NOT be allowed to sit next to his victim or be near her. If he is not prosecuted and sent to prison where he should be and is allowed to remain in the church, he should be watched very closely.

Also, I'm not convinced the man is truly repentent or sorry for what he did. Did he confess without anyone finding out about it first? If he did, then I would agree that he is sorry for what he did. However, how many child molesters molest only one child and then stop? If he only confessed because he was found out, I would question his sincerity in repentence. How many criminals suddenly became sorry after they were caught?

Both of my daughters were molested by their mother's live-in boyfriend. He also molested other girls including his own. The last I knew he was in prison. That's where this man should be. I assume that those here who say he should be forgiven and accepted back into fellowship and even allowed to sit next to his victim have never had a child that was molested or raped. Either that or you're a lot better Christian than I will ever be.

Also, would a born again Christian molest children? I know that we can have any sinful desire that a non-Christian has since we still have our sinful nature, but that doesn't mean we have no choice but to act out that desire. I can't even think about sinning without the Holy Spirit convicting me of it.

We are told not to take a brother in Christ to court for the purpose of suing, but if even a Christian commits a felony does being saved make him exempt from prosecution? It wouldn't be his church that would be taking him to court; it would be the law that says that molesting a child is a felony crime and punishable by imprisonment.

 

[bapmom]

You're right Jon-Marc......I cannot think of a better way to say it.



Several times I read in this thread that Pastor Larry asked us to explore what real forgiveness looks like. Ive been thinking on that, and Ive got a partial response......

Real forgiveness (as Ive been taught it) means that on a personal, one-on-one level I can treat the forgiven person the same as I treat anyone else. It means I do not avoid that person. It means I am not ignoring my own hurt feelings and just tamping them down further in my soul - it means those hurt feelings are actually gone........or at least when they resurface I deal with them by bringing them back to God again and laying them back down.

However, real forgiveness cannot mean "lack of consequence", because God says He forgives us and yet we know that there are sometimes temporal consequences that our sin causes in our life - long term. When we harm our own body, for example, God forgives us but that doesn't mean the actual physical scar is gone. God's requirements for bishops in and of itself would indicate that there are God-given consequences for being a brawler, or for not having one's household in order. If these requirements are there for a bishop, then that must mean they exclude some men from serving in that capacity.....even though God has forgiven those excluded men - they are still ineligible for that particular area of service.

 

[Amy.G]

Originally Posted by Amy.G

If the molestor in this case has been forgiven and restored to fellowship, there is no reason to press criminal charges against him. We are told not to take our brethren to court.

And if he has been forgiven and restored, there is also no reason for him to be 'watched'. He should be free to sit next to the little girl if he wants. Otherwise, there is still forgiveness being witheld.

Jon-Marc:

I totally disagree with this. The man committed a felony of child molestation, and the parents have every right to expect him to pay for that. He should NOT be allowed to sit next to his victim or be near her. If he is not prosecuted and sent to prison where he should be and is allowed to remain in the church, he should be watched very closely.

Jon-Marc, I posted that in response to Pastor Larry statements about allowing the molestor to continue as a member of the church. Please read all of his statements. This is not what I feel should happen. I was being sarcastic.

 

[TaterTot]

Goodness, there is no way I would sit near or allow any child to sit near a convicted or confessed child molester. I dont care how repentant he is. Thats just part of the consequence of his actions that will follow him (or her, to be fair) all the rest of life.

 

[Filmproducer]

I have been contemplating all the responses on this thread and I have a question. Pastor Larry you have spoken quite a bit about Christian forgiveness. As far as I can tell no one has claimed this man should not be forgiven, because he should be. My question is what about Christian repentance? As Christians we are told there are consequences for our sin, even though we are saved by the blood of Jesus. Why is it that the victims should have to suffer the consequences of this man's sin? If he were truly repentent and there was not another church where he could attend I still don't believe he should be allowed to continue to fellowship in the church. At the very least the church should attempt to accomodate both the victim and the repentant sinner. Why couldn't the church have a group of godly men stay after the services for the day are finished and have a time of study and fellowship with this man? Personally I don't think the consequences for our sin are limited to physical scars or jail time, there are spiritual consequences as well. As such he should not have been allowed to worship and fellowship in the church so easily. If he is a truly repentant Christian brother he would not want to cause another to stumble in their walk with God, and frankly that is what he did to this family. It is not overnight that a family can overcome something so horrendous. Not all that much time has elasped since his sin found him out. He is a stumbling block in this family's life and worship, and it does not seem that the church even attempted to take this into account. Do you really think the church would do the same thing if the offender was not a former elder and husband of the church administrater? Call me cynical, but I don't.

 

[donnA]

I totally disagree with this. The man committed a felony of child molestation, and the parents have every right to expect him to pay for that. He should NOT be allowed to sit next to his victim or be near her. If he is not prosecuted and sent to prison where he should be and is allowed to remain in the church, he should be watched very closely.

Also, I'm not convinced the man is truly repentent or sorry for what he did. Did he confess without anyone finding out about it first? If he did, then I would agree that he is sorry for what he did. However, how many child molesters molest only one child and then stop? If he only confessed because he was found out, I would question his sincerity in repentence. How many criminals suddenly became sorry after they were caught?

Both of my daughters were molested by their mother's live-in boyfriend. He also molested other girls including his own. The last I knew he was in prison. That's where this man should be. I assume that those here who say he should be forgiven and accepted back into fellowship and even allowed to sit next to his victim have never had a child that was molested or raped. Either that or you're a lot better Christian than I will ever be.

Also, would a born again Christian molest children? I know that we can have any sinful desire that a non-Christian has since we still have our sinful nature, but that doesn't mean we have no choice but to act out that desire. I can't even think about sinning without the Holy Spirit convicting me of it.

We are told not to take a brother in Christ to court for the purpose of suing, but if even a Christian commits a felony does being saved make him exempt from prosecution? It wouldn't be his church that would be taking him to court; it would be the law that says that molesting a child is a felony crime and punishable by imprisonment.

I agree with you, and woyld only add that if her were truely repentant he would turn himself in to the police and confess to them, seeing as how he committed not just a sin, but a serious crime against a child, for which eh has ruined her life.

 

[donnA]

I am not sure why we as christians would do anything, anything, to protect a felon, especially a pedophile. Lets think about that, which felonies become ok to commit as long as one is willing to claim repentance? And does repentance relieve a person of the consequences of their sin? Does repentance relieve a person of the legal consequences of their crime?
All the while we ask the victim to continue being exposed to her attacker, either that or she can darn well leave the church. Where is love and compassion, and ministry for this innocent child?
I'll tell you where, it's with a pedophile.

 

[Amy.G]

I am not sure why we as christians would do anything, anything, to protect a felon, especially a pedophile. Lets think about that, which felonies become ok to commit as long as one is willing to claim repentance? And does repentance relieve a person of the consequences of their sin? Does repentance relieve a person of the legal consequences of their crime?
All the while we ask the victim to continue being exposed to her attacker, either that or she can darn well leave the church. Where is love and compassion, and ministry for this innocent child?
I'll tell you where, it's with a pedophile.

My feelings too, Donna.
Just in case you couldn't tell by my previous posts! :laugh: