What's the AUTHORITY for an English Bible?

[Yeshua1]

Yes, Jesus spoke of the Old Testament Scriptures as inspired and authoritative. Are you saying this regarding the Hebrew, or are you also applying it to translation (in this case, the Greek translation of the Hebrew & Aramaic)?

the Hebrew scriptures themselves, as while the Apostles quoted from and used LLX in their books, that was not inspired , but their use of it was!

 

[Yeshua1]

Who said it had to be from "the lips of Jesus"? The Bible is authoritative for faith and practice. I suppose we can accept the gift he gives.
Psalm 127:2 ...he gives to his beloved sleep.

I appreciate you as one who has given some possible biblical principles for Bible translation (most seemed to skip over that). I'm still curious about your dominion position, though?

What is Dominion position?

 

[rlvaughn]

the Hebrew scriptures themselves, as while the Apostles quoted from and used LLX in their books, that was not inspired , but their use of it was!

I think that could make a pretty good case for using a translation, if we could prove that Jesus and the New Testament writers quoted from a translation (specifically, the Greek LXX). That seems to be a never ending argument, though, that will not satisfy. We have to try to discern from what is quoted, since no New Testament writer says, "I'm quoting from the LXX."

What is Dominion position?

The "Dominion Position" was stated by thatbrian in post # 48:

By the authority that God gave to Adam to have dominion over all the Earth.

Man is not passive but a vital actor in God's work of redemption. Biblical translation is simply one way in which men fulfill God's command.

 

[rlvaughn]

It is translated in other languages. Not like Islam where they are forced to learn Arabic in order to read it.

Are you suggesting we should follow the Muslim's lead and only publish the Bible in its ancient Hebrew and Greek and force people to learn to read it in its original languages?

I've been thinking about what you said in those two posts. Though Islam and Christianity are wildly different religions, the views of the majority of Muslims about the Quran and the majority of Christians about the Bible aren't that different. It is not true that the Quran can't be translated into other languages. It can and has been. What Muslims usually hold is that only the original language (Arabic) is inspired. It is nevertheless permissible to translate the Quran for those who neither speak nor understand Arabic. The translation is not inspired and considered more of an interpretation.
"The translated Quran is not the Quran, and is not translated through inspiration from God. The translated Quran is not a substitute for the original Arabic Quran." See
Translation of the Quran

Is this greatly different from the majority Christian view of the inspiration of the Bible -- that the original is inspired and not translations?

In The Fundamentals, Inspiration of the Bible—Definition, Extent, and Proof, James M. Gray wrote, "Let it be stated further in this definitional connection, that the record for whose inspiration we contend is the original record—the autographs or parchments of Moses, David, Daniel, Matthew, Paul or Peter, as the case may be, and not any particular translation or translations of them whatever. There is no translation absolutely without error, nor could there be, considering the infirmities of human copyists, unless God were pleased to perform a perpetual miracle to secure it."

This is the position of leading evangelical seminaries, for examples:
"...We believe that this divine inspiration extends equally and fully to all parts of the writings—historical, poetical, doctrinal, and prophetical—as appeared in the original manuscripts. We believe that the whole Bible in the originals is therefore without error..." Doctrinal Statement, Dallas Theological Seminary
"We believe in the verbal, plenary inspiration of the Bible,1 the sixty-six books of the Old and New Testament canon which, being inerrant in the original manuscripts..." Statement of Faith, Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary
"We believe that the Bible is the verbally inspired and infallible, authoritative Word of God and that God gave the words of Scripture by inspiration without error in the original autographs..." Articles of Faith, Pensacola Christian College

 

[rlvaughn]

Regarding translating the Bible into other languages, I haven't found that a lot of Baptist articles of faith speak that. The 1689 London Confession (and the Savoy and Westminster preceding it) does so.
"But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have a right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded in the fear of God to read, and search them, therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come, that the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship Him in an acceptable manner, and through patience and comfort of the Scriptures may have hope."
The proof texts there are: Acts of the Apostles 15:15; John 5:39; and 1 Corinthians 14:6-28 (they have it listed as 6 ,9, 11, 12, 24, 28).

 

[robycop3]

I'd say Ruckman's view sums up the KJVO position of he and his followers, and that there are a wide variety who do not fall under his summary. I know nothing of Gipp.

Whatever either of these two think about the Bible does not affect how others formulate a position on whether the Bible ought to be translated out of the original languages, or what they formulate. My reading of this thread suggests to me that very few of us have ever given it much thought (and I am including myself in that assessment).

Dr. Samuel Gipp is a preacher & evangelist, and also a rabid KJVO. I showed him wrong about the "Easter" goof in the KJV, & I doubt he would communicate with me now. After all, he has a Th.D among other degrees, while I have a HS diploma & work as a custodial engineer in a steel mill. (Full union benefits)

I call one of his better-known boox "The Wrong-Answer Book", as it was made in collaboration with Jack Chick, who was also a rabid (and often INCORRECT) KJVO.

 

[church mouse guy]

By Authority , you seem to infer "Authorized Version" written of the KJV which is man's authority and financial backing ,
Like an Royal approval. Remember there we other English versions in use that did not have approval from the establishment,
That is why Tyndale had to be replaced in the establishments mind.

God has not authorized any translation but we know He can provide translators led by the Holy Spirit to do their jobs accordingly.

No translation is inspired but may present the scriptures accurately, or maybe not. We know God does protect His word as men try to change it.

I've always heard that the KJV is mostly Tyndale, who must have been highly intelligent to translate the entire Scripture by himself and mostly 100% correctly. The average person is so dependent upon the experts that the translation is reliable. I use several translation but I prefer the KJV for the beauty of the English language. I myself think that things such as language, music, and churches should be beautiful.

As for the authority to translate into English, by what authority did the Jews translate their Scripture into Greek?

 

[loDebar]

I've always heard that the KJV is mostly Tyndale, who must have been highly intelligent to translate the entire Scripture by himself and mostly 100% correctly. The average person is so dependent upon the experts that the translation is reliable. I use several translation but I prefer the KJV for the beauty of the English language. I myself think that things such as language, music, and churches should be beautiful.

As for the authority to translate into English, by what authority did the Jews translate their Scripture into Greek?

I do not support any Spiritual authority for the KJV translation, only the Authorization was the King, like a Royal Warrant for a Land Rover or Armor

I do not know but imagine a council of Hebrew scholars, probably of Alexandria, who saw the need for the Hebrew to be Greek in the Greek dominated society. As a non Hebrew, non Greek speaker , I only see complications trying to understand Hebrew to English, without going through Greek, .. or Latin

The beautiful part of English, ability to show thoughts in so many ways, detracts if trying to be so accurate in original thoughts.
We to go from the original thought to the same thought in English.

 

[church mouse guy]

So by what authority was the Septuagint written?

 

[loDebar]

So by what authority was the Septuagint written?

It was a OT in Greek that is all.

from Wikipedia

The traditional story, as recorded in the Letter of Aristeas, is that Ptolemy II sponsored the translation of the Torah (Pentateuch, Five Books of Moses). Subsequently, the Greek translation was in circulation among the Alexandrian Jews who were fluent in Koine Greek but not in Hebrew,[6] the former being the lingua franca of Alexandria, Egypt and the Eastern Mediterranean at the time.[7]


Seventy-two Jewish scholars were asked by the Greek King of Egypt Ptolemy II Philadelphus to translate the Torah from Biblical Hebrew into Greek, for inclusion in the Library of Alexandria.[11]

 

[Yeshua1]

Dr. Samuel Gipp is a preacher & evangelist, and also a rabid KJVO. I showed him wrong about the "Easter" goof in the KJV, & I doubt he would communicate with me now. After all, he has a Th.D among other degrees, while I have a HS diploma & work as a custodial engineer in a steel mill. (Full union benefits)

I call one of his better-known boox "The Wrong-Answer Book", as it was made in collaboration with Jack Chick, who was also a rabid (and often INCORRECT) KJVO.

The full blown Kjvo persons would see the Kjv as being able to "fix" any errors in the original languages texts themselves!

 

[robycop3]

I believe Scripture itself establishes authority for it to be translated into any language, while, in the thread for authority for the KJVO myth, we have proven there isn't any such authority except that made by man.

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe Scripture itself establishes authority for it to be translated into any language, while, in the thread for authority for the KJVO myth, we have proven there isn't any such authority except that made by man.

The authority is that we have been given the great Commission, and not all people speak Hebrew/Greek!

 

[rlvaughn]

I believe Scripture itself establishes authority for it to be translated into any language, while, in the thread for authority for the KJVO myth, we have proven there isn't any such authority except that made by man.

Where in Scripture itself?

The authority is that we have been given the great Commission, and not all people speak Hebrew/Greek!

Why not teach them Hebrew and Greek?

 

[robycop3]

Where in Scripture itself?

Mainly, in Acts 2, where the HOLY SPIRIT enabled all present to hear Peter's speech in his/her own language.

Also, in 1 Cor. 14 where Paul makes it plain that to understand the Gospel, one must hear it in his/her own language.

Why not teach them Hebrew and Greek?

Because everyone can't learn them. That fact is not lost on GOD, who makes all languages.

 

[atpollard]

Don't see any English in there, nor any command for a written translation of the Bible.

Why do you share the word of God online in English? There is no Biblical command to do so. Perhaps you should restrict all your evangelism to wandering, making tents and preaching in ancient Greek. If God wants anyone to understand, he will re-deploy the Acts 2 gift of Tongues.

 

[atpollard]

1 Corinthians 9:19-23

19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
​

Sometimes "by all means" includes compiling the canonical books into a Bible, and translating the Bible so people can read it.

 

[rlvaughn]

Why do you share the word of God online in English? There is no Biblical command to do so. Perhaps you should restrict all your evangelism to wandering, making tents and preaching in ancient Greek. If God wants anyone to understand, he will re-deploy the Acts 2 gift of Tongues.

If that is the answer, then let's do it.

 

[rlvaughn]

1 Corinthians 9:19-23

19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
​

Sometimes "by all means" includes compiling the canonical books into a Bible, and translating the Bible so people can read it.

Where does that fit into the all things and all means of the context? In other words, how do you tie it in and make the case?

 

[rlvaughn]

Because everyone can't learn them. That fact is not lost on GOD, who makes all languages.

Is there biblical authority saying everyone can't learn them?

Mainly, in Acts 2, where the HOLY SPIRIT enabled all present to hear Peter's speech in his/her own language.

Also, in 1 Cor. 14 where Paul makes it plain that to understand the Gospel, one must hear it in his/her own language.

[I'll come back to this. These are two I would use also, but the first one probably not the same way most people would.]