Originally posted by ascund:
So many of your view hope that their good works will somehow outweight their bad and they will "squeeze" into heaven. Congrats! This is a big step away from the darkness.
But you yet haven't got it completely straight for you now turn to Acts 10:35 and contradict yourself ...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bmerr:
"But in every nation, he that feareth [God], and
worketh righteousness, is accepted of him."
while
our righteousness may indeed be as filthy rags, there is a righteousness that man
must work to be accepted by God, that is, His righteousness, which is defined as all of His commandments (Ps 119:172).
Here, you show that you are still a works-in-process theologian.
Why is it that I can articulate your view - but you can't mine?
YOU HOLD that one receives initial justification by faith. The believer receives the indwelling Spirit and infused grace to conform unto the image of Jesus Christ. When the believer achieves a certain (undefined) level of perfection, God will reward that soul with final justification. Salvation depends on both justification and a process of sanctification.</font>[/QUOTE]Lloyd,
bmerr here. There you go again, misrepresenting folks. While I can appreciate your education, I resent your attempt at mind reading! You don't know as much as you think you know, Lloyd!
The Bible states outright that man is justified by works, and not by faith only (James 2:24).
Paul states repeatedly that man is not justified by the
"works of the law" (Rom 3:20; Gal 2:16; etc).
In Titus 3:5, he says that we are not saved by works of righteousness that we have done, which is in line with Is 64:6, "...all
our righteousnessess are as filthy rags..."
Peter (another inspired writer) states that he that feareth God, and
worketh righteousness is accepted of Him (Acts 10:35).
I didn't write this stuff, I'm just reading it.
We can deduce that the righteousness that man must work (which Peter and James refer to) is not good things that man comes up with, which would be our rightesousness (Is 64:6, Tit 3:5), and it's not keeping the Mosaic law (Rom 3:20; Gal 2:16), so what is it?
Psalms 119:172 (not 119:162, as in my earlier typo) tells us that all of God's commandments are righteousness.
It is a fact that there were commandments from God that man was to obey before the Law was given on Mt. Sinai. Adam and Eve were told to refrain from eating from the forbidden tree. Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice because he did it in accordance with God's word (Heb 11:4). Noah built the ark by faith, or in accordance with God's command. Murder was a sin LONG before "Thou shalt not kill" sounded from the firey mountain (Ex 20:13).
Men such as Noah and Abraham were justified, or declared righteous, by God because they obeyed the commandments of God. Their faith was made perfect by their works.
What if they had believed that God had spoken, and even believed what He had said, but did not obey? What good would their faith be? How would it be known?
I HOLD that one is justified by faith (as do you).
No, you hold, if I understand you correctly, that one is justified by "faith only", which I do not find written in the Bible, and therefore, reject as false doctrine.
So when you say </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />there is a righteousness that man must work to be accepted by God
you see this as the process of sanctification that leads to final justification.</font>[/QUOTE]No, I simply see it as what is written in the Scriptures. I just don't try to argue it away.
I don't expect you at this point to believe my system. But it would be nice if you could articulate it as I do yours.
Thus, the starting of this thread. What kind of faith do you say it is that saves a man? Is it a non-working faith, which the Bible says is dead, or is it a faith accompanied by appropriate works (not works of the law, and not meritorious works, but obedience), which the Bible says justifies man?
There is no work that a man can do to be acceptable with God. Galatians is full of passages that declare justification APART FROM WORKS. Gal 2:16; 3:2-5, 11, 5:4
First off, the Bible says that's not true (Acts 10:35). Secondly, every one of these verses speaks of the
works of the law, which we already agree does not justify.
Do you remember my 100% survey of the word justify? Should I pull that out again?? No where is justification linked with works. It is always and solely linked to faith in Christ.
Again, what
kind of faith in Christ?
With all those words, can you not now see Acts 10:35? </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />He that feareth [God] and worketh righteousness, is accepted of him
He that feareth [God] is already justified. The "worketh righteousness" is sanctification.</font>[/QUOTE]The text does not say that, though. You seem to be twisting the text to make it say what you want it to.
You blend them together. I hold them distinct.
Lloyd, I think you may be the one in error for trying to separate them. The Bible seems to keep them together.
Your blending puts human works on par with Christ's Cross. My distinction only depends on Christ. That quite a difference!
Our obedience is in keeping with the pattern, or example left for us by Christ. How can one expect to be saved by Christ, if his faith is not obedient as Christ's faith was? He is the author of eternal salvation to all that obey Him (Heb 5:8, 9).
Belief is to obedience as unbelief is to disobedience. Look at 1 Pet 2:7:
Unto you therefore which
believe he is precious: but unto them which be
disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is become the head of the corner.
Can you see how "believe" and "disobedient" are presented as opposites? To believe is to obey. That's so simple, even I can figure it out.
I've heard of some who have been "educated beyond their common sense". I hope you are not of this number.
In Christ,
bmerr
