What's the point of Jesus dying for everyone?

[johnp.]

Hello ex.

Question: Is there a verse in the Bible that says that Jesus did NOT die for the whole world.

1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "

Calvinistic debate tactic #1: Obviously since the Bible doesn't say such a thing...

Your premise is wrong.

john.

 

[johnp.]

How does it work ex? If Jesus died for all then why do some go to Hell?
If the effects of the sacrifice are not applied without our consent then doesn't that mean that the punishment for sins is extracted twice? Once from Christ and then from the rejectors. What sin can send a man to Hell once Christ has paid the penalty due to sin?

If you notice in John Jesus says of those opposing Him that they did so because they were not His sheep, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep... (John 10:26.) He doesn't say they are not His sheep because they don't believe but they don't believe because they are not His sheep. just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep... (John 10:15.) Only the sheep.

NU 21:6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died.

This, by the way, is before the remedy was given. How do you answer this?

NU 21:9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

Notice, also, that Jesus gave no indication that the atonement of the standard was limited in scope, but rather was opened up to "anyone."

Israel sinned and Israel's representatives called on Moses to help and Moses portrayed Christ to Israel for the sins of Israel. I don't see anyone else being involved outside of the Israelites.

PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.

Since God only revealed His word to Israel and since faith comes from hearing the message, (Rom 10:17), then any idea that those who have not heard will be saved is contradictory to scripture.
RO 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.

This is limited atonement proved along with 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "

john.

 

[Blammo]

johnp,


Have a swell day. :wavey:

 

[johnp.]

thanks.

got your popcorn?

john.

 

[Blammo]

thanks.

got your popcorn?

john.

On my way out for doughnuts and chocolate milk. :laugh: Really, I say the truth, I lie not!!! The ladies (My wife and my neice) are demanding I go.

 

[Amy.G]

What sin can send a man to Hell once Christ has paid the penalty due to sin?

The sin of unbelief.

18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

 

[Amy.G]

On my way out for doughnuts and chocolate milk. :laugh: Really, I say the truth, I lie not!!! The ladies (My wife and my neice) are demanding I go.

Yeah, right. :laugh:

 

[johnp.]

The sin of unbelief.

A limited atonement Amy. You say He did not die for all your sins.

john.

 

[npetreley]

The sin of unbelief.

18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already,

CONDEMNED ALREADY. Not "condemned for the sin of unbelief". In other words, all are condemned UNLESS they trust in Christ to remove that condemnation. If Christ died for all sins, there would be no need to believe and have our condemnation, which already exists, removed.

 

[johnp.]

If I'm witnessing to a bum on the street, I can say with no mental reservation "God loves you, Christ died for you." I can also tell my little children that.

The children of the elect are elect themselves Pipedude. If I tell anyone that Christ loves them I might not be telling the truth. God hates some, how do I know which is which? If I leave out any sight they may get of a God of wrath and vengence then I am not declaring the whole will of God, Acts 20:26-27, and their blood might be on my hands.

john.

 

[webdog]

The children of the elect are elect themselves Pipedude.

Conditional election, johnp?

 

[J.D.]

Question: Is there a verse in the Bible that says that Jesus did NOT die for the whole world.

Calvinistic debate tactic #1: Obviously since the Bible doesn't say such a thing, and in fact explicitly says the opposite (John 1:29; 1John 2:1), therefore instead of being embarassed by having to make that admission, its better to just quote a verse which talks about Jesus dying for the Church, and then hope that no one notices that the verse doesn't say "only" the Church. Along the same lines, use Matthew 1:21 and suggest that Jesus only died for His people. Even though "His people" is an unmistakable reference to Israel (John 1:11), claim "special revelation" whereby God had a "secret will" and that this references His "secret sheep" in contrast to "secret goats."

What if Jesus sat down with you and gave you an analogy of the atonement of Calvary?

What illustration do you think that He might give you? Turn to John 3:14-15, and you'll see Jesus give an example from the Old Testament, found at Numbers 21:6-9. Notice that Jesus did not say that there were some people bitten who were secret "sheep" while others were secret "goats" and that the secret sheep are the ones who looked to the bronze standard. Notice, also, that Jesus gave no indication that the atonement of the standard was limited in scope, but rather was opened up to "anyone." Realize that this was Jesus' example. Jesus gave us this as an example of how to view the Cross, and part of the Divine Comedy is that it does not teach Calvinism.

Is there a verse in the Bible that says that Jesus did NOT die for the whole world.

No one has made that claim. Strawman.
Jesus DID die for the whole world.
But "World" does not necessarily mean "every person that ever lived without exception". The question you and I must answer is WHICH "kosmos" did Christ die for?

Calvinistic debate tactic #1:

Where can I get this book of Calvnistic debate tactics? Why wasn't I offered that class? I'll have to bring this up at the next secret meeting!

 

[Blammo]

Yeah, right. :laugh:

Well, I certainly wasn't resisting. I'd have to admit I went of my own free will.

 

[Brother Bob]

The children of the elect are elect themselves Pipedude. If I tell anyone that Christ loves them I might not be telling the truth. God hates some, how do I know which is which? If I leave out any sight they may get of a God of wrath and vengence then I am not declaring the whole will of God, Acts 20:26-27, and their blood might be on my hands.


john.

How you know you are not telling them a lie? Just wondering.​

 

[Blammo]

The children of the elect are elect themselves...

Do both parents have to be elect?
If not, does it have to be the child's father?
Can two non-elect parents have an elect child?
Where do I find these answers in the Bible?

 

[webdog]

Do both parents have to be elect?
If not, does it have to be the child's father?
Can two non-elect parents have an elect child?
Where do I find these answers in the Bible?

1 Johnp 1:1

 

[johnp.]

Conditional election, johnp?

Ex 20:5 ...for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

I was born to non-Christians.

How you know you are not telling them a lie? Just wondering.

What about, the God of wrath or the God of love Bob?

Do both parents have to be elect?

No.

If not, does it have to be the child's father?

No.

Can two non-elect parents have an elect child?

I am one.

Where do I find these answers in the Bible?

1CO 7:12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

Acts 2:39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

As useful as ever webdog?

john.

 

[webdog]

As useful as ever webdog?

You bet...still as wrong as ever, johnp?

BTW...sanctification is not justification, so your 1 Cor. proof text is anything but.

 

[npetreley]

Say to a stranger: "God loves you and Christ died for you."

If election is false, and free-willism is true, this statement is true. If election is true and free-willism false, then this is a lie to many strangers. In fact, it is a mockery of God's love because you may be saying it to somone God hates, and you are falsely contradicting God.

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Say to a stranger: "God gave his only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." Or simply say, "If you repent of your sins and believe on Jesus, you will be saved"

If election is false, these statements are true. In fact, the first one is a particular favorite of free-willers. If election is true, these statements are still true. The person you are speaking to may not be one of the "whosoever" who believes because we don't know who is elect and who is not, but the statement is still true. Believe and you will not perish. The second statement is also true whether or not election is true. If you repent of your sins and trust in Jesus, you shall be saved. You don't know if the person will repent or not, but you're still telling him/her the truth.

In fact, I really like the way Spurgeon put it: Sinner, trust in Jesus: and if thou dost perish trusting in Jesus, I will perish with thee. I will make my bed in hell, side by side with thee, sinner, if thou canst perish trusting in Christ, and thou shalt lie there, and taunt me to all eternity for having taught thee falsely, if we perish. But that can never be; those who trust in Jesus shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of His hand. Come to Jesus, and He will in no wise cast thee out.

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You witness any way you want. If you want to risk contradicting God, that's your business. I would rather witness and present the Gospel in a way that cannot possibly be wrong.

 

[johnp.]

BTW...sanctification is not justification, so your 1 Cor. proof text is anything but.

I never said it was did I? What was it proof of? Ex 20:5 ...for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

I see you blank this webdog.

I'm with the beaver and Spurgeon. I wonder why He punishes the reprobates children in this way, it was hardly their fault now was it webdog?

john.