Brother Bob
New Member
Man is in time God is outside of time but can interject Himself anytime He wants.
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What's Wrong with Calvinism?
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
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Man is in time God is outside of time but can interject Himself anytime He wants.
Brother Bob
New Member
Big difference. If there was no difference then your theory of God foreknew His people would be in trouble now wouldn't it?
Proverbs, chapter 16
6: By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.
Proverbs, chapter 16
6: By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.
Jarthur001
Active Member
When the Bible says God foreknow a man..what TIME do you think God wanted us to think this was? The Bible was wrote for man, to know about God. Men know about time. So when God tell US...men...that God foreknow...what time do you think He want us to think of?Brother Bob said:
Brother Bob
New Member
Simply telling us the Scriptures that God gave man. That man was in time but knew you when you were in your mother's womb and even before that. You have not seen yourself glorified but God has. You haven't seen your death but God has.
Gotta go to bed, big day tomorrow. Pick this up later if you still want?
Jarthur001
Active Member
ok...have a good one...Brother Bob said:
In Christ...James
Still no point. Your doctrine has overlapped itself. God produces fear in the hearts of His people Ps. 110:3. He creates the willingness in them. Phil. 2:13. Man comes to the light that his deeds might be manifest that they "Are Wrought in God"! Under your doctrine God loves men who he never knew in Christ in eternity. Then based on there rejection of Christ in time He puts them in hell & does not love them any more. The Scripture teaches that Christ's people were chosen in him before the foundation of the world. These are the number loved of God. The others "the wrath of God abideth on them" The only difference in the elect & the others is the choice of God for them or they would be damned with the rest.Brother Bob said:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
#1. God knows ALL things from eternity. You can not argue as you do "from what God does not know from eternity".
#2. You present arbitrary selection from God who is partial towards some on a purely arbitrary basis - but not others. By Contrast Romans 2 makes the argument "God is NOT parital". And when you see the CONTEXT in which that is said - it is totally devastating to Calvinism BECAUSE it includes SUCCESSFUL examples.
This is such a devastating argument against Calvinism - you will find most Calvinists avoid Romans 2 altogether.
In Christ,
Bob
#2. You present arbitrary selection from God who is partial towards some on a purely arbitrary basis - but not others. By Contrast Romans 2 makes the argument "God is NOT parital". And when you see the CONTEXT in which that is said - it is totally devastating to Calvinism BECAUSE it includes SUCCESSFUL examples.
This is such a devastating argument against Calvinism - you will find most Calvinists avoid Romans 2 altogether.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Brother Bob said:
"Whom He foreknew He predestined" what does God NOT Foreknow?? Answer -- nothing!
"For God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to REPENTANCE".
"For God so loved the WORLD that He gave".
Yes really!!
That IS the Arminian position!
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
jne1611 said:
Hence we find that God supernaturally dRAWs ALL MANKIND "I will draw ALL to myself" John 12:32.
Hence God sends His son to be "The Savior of the WORLD" John 4:14.
And so In Christ "God was reconciling the WORLD to Himself" 2Cor 5.
For gave His Son "As the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT FOR our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2.
Yes "really"!
That IS the Arminian position. And that is the difference between the truth of the Arminian view as it is in God's Word -- and Calvinism.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
jne1611 said:
As I stated - please "make a point" -- Pick something IN the scenario -a point a principle and be honest enough to "Deny it".
I will then flatly disprove your assertion by showing Calvinist statements to that effect that are much MORE explicit than I have given it - in my soften version of their views.
So instead of complaining with empty ranting - "say something" that can be shown or proven!! You know - like I DID!
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
As usual - the Calvinist response when facing a stark example of the flaws in 5 point Calvinism (and 4 point as well) is to simply ignore all details and "complain" that they are exposed!
So while we "wait" for substantive response from Calvinists to the "CLassic Calvinist future scenario" we will quote some of their more AFFIRMING statements of the principles ILLUSTRATED in that scenario --
To see the “perfect” Calvinist confirmation “in a nutshell” –
All well and good for the Cavlinist position - but what about the Arminian view?
And for us Arminians (and our 3-Pt Calvinist Bretheren) - well we will just have to be content with the fact that God really DOES "So Love the World" not merely the "Few " of Matt 7 - and He is the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT our sins only - but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2::2.
We will have to be content in all eternity with the God that DOES Love ALL and died for ALL and "IS not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to Repentance". Somehow that will have to help us enjoy eternity too instead of viewing God as the source of partial and arbitrary decisions the Calvinism does it.
Here we see a post arguing that God should not be expected to “care” for all – particularly not the lost –
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1547.html#000000
Here is a quote showing the fact that from the human POV there is no difference between the lost and the elect. (i.e. arbitrary selection) accepted by Calvinists today.
Notice that it also affirms the “expected future condition” of parents in heaven although their child is “lost”. (Parent selected, Child not selected)
And here we see confirmed the "all deserve hell but is it not great that some are selected to be elect point of Calvinism – as it turns from the sorrowful case of the lost and just sees how they “deserve what they get”.
God “shows mercy to SOME but not others” according to Pastor Larry.
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1406/5.html#000069
Calvinist overjoyed at this inexplicable selection” of one and not the other idea.. In their view – God saves all He “cares” to save and none else..
Tthe joy of God sending some to hell and others to save and BOTH groups perfectly performing His will –
So while we "wait" for substantive response from Calvinists to the "CLassic Calvinist future scenario" we will quote some of their more AFFIRMING statements of the principles ILLUSTRATED in that scenario --
To see the “perfect” Calvinist confirmation “in a nutshell” –
All well and good for the Cavlinist position - but what about the Arminian view?
And for us Arminians (and our 3-Pt Calvinist Bretheren) - well we will just have to be content with the fact that God really DOES "So Love the World" not merely the "Few " of Matt 7 - and He is the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT our sins only - but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2::2.
We will have to be content in all eternity with the God that DOES Love ALL and died for ALL and "IS not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to Repentance". Somehow that will have to help us enjoy eternity too instead of viewing God as the source of partial and arbitrary decisions the Calvinism does it.
Here we see a post arguing that God should not be expected to “care” for all – particularly not the lost –
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1547.html#000000
Here is a quote showing the fact that from the human POV there is no difference between the lost and the elect. (i.e. arbitrary selection) accepted by Calvinists today.
Notice that it also affirms the “expected future condition” of parents in heaven although their child is “lost”. (Parent selected, Child not selected)
And here we see confirmed the "all deserve hell but is it not great that some are selected to be elect point of Calvinism – as it turns from the sorrowful case of the lost and just sees how they “deserve what they get”.
God “shows mercy to SOME but not others” according to Pastor Larry.
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1406/5.html#000069
Calvinist overjoyed at this inexplicable selection” of one and not the other idea.. In their view – God saves all He “cares” to save and none else..
Tthe joy of God sending some to hell and others to save and BOTH groups perfectly performing His will –
Not really getting into the discussion, but I'm still a-tryin' to figger out iffen I was predestined to be an Arminian, or if I chose to become a Calvinist, since neither one seems to really fit me. 
I have said for 'the sake of argument', I'm not an 'Arminian', and at best, a "No Point 'Calvinist'.
The question is almost moot, in the first place, for what is the real substantitive difference between commit, obey and persevere, for a Calvinist or an Arminian? The verdict of either, for one who does not meet these undefined (of course) characteristics, is "Lost!" And that is where they come together, (and what is wrong with both, BTW) with both moving from starting point "A", not in opposite directions, as is usually postulated, but merely 180* around a circle until they meet again, on the opposite side, at 'perseverance'. Hence, there is no qualitative difference, as I have stated several times before. And so-called "Lordship Salvation" is the logical (although contrary to what Scripture teaches about salvation) end of both systems.
Ed
I have said for 'the sake of argument', I'm not an 'Arminian', and at best, a "No Point 'Calvinist'.
The question is almost moot, in the first place, for what is the real substantitive difference between commit, obey and persevere, for a Calvinist or an Arminian?
The verdict of either, for one who does not meet these undefined (of course) characteristics, is "Lost!" And that is where they come together, (and what is wrong with both, BTW) with both moving from starting point "A", not in opposite directions, as is usually postulated, but merely 180* around a circle until they meet again, on the opposite side, at 'perseverance'. Hence, there is no qualitative difference, as I have stated several times before. And so-called "Lordship Salvation" is the logical (although contrary to what Scripture teaches about salvation) end of both systems. Ed
So God has given faith to all men? Really? OK. lets break down your interpretation of those Scriptures. God has drawn all men to Christ, Reconciled all men to Himself Atoned & satisfied His wrath concerning all men. If your view be correct. Hell will be empty! Except for the Devil and the angels who somehow fell outside the scope of God's love. And your assertion that most Calvinist's avoid Rom. 2!!!!!!!! Who have you been reading?BobRyan said:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
First of all - I can't believe I am actually being asked to go into the devastating details of Romans 2 --
Now from Romans 1 to 2:3 we have had introduced the subject of God's infallible judgment and contrasted it to man's faulty judgment
Lets pay special attention to the details of the starting Context that PAUL gives in his letter to the Romans and SEE how "choice" plays out in this IMPARTIAL system where the IMPARTIAL God calls ALL to repentance. Instead of this chapter saying “all deserve hell so God is simply sending everyone there” this chapter STARTS with the call of ALL to “repentance”. The mercy and goodness of God that “leads” us to repentance in the Gospel.
Rom 2[/b]
4 or do you think lightly of the riches of his kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?[/b
.
Vs 4 shows us that the mercy - kindness - grace leads us to repent. This chapter starts with the Gospel basics of God's offer to grant repentance and that all need to repent.
Note: The Context for Romans 2 is STARTING with judgment, AND of the mercy of God that leads to repentance.
Let's continue letting the scripture speak for itself;
Paul is adamant that there is a future judgment “according to deeds”. Paul here identifies the “impartial” basis of God’s judgment. Instead of His simply “arbitrarily selecting” some to favor and others to ignore – ALL are judged according to deeds IN the context of the “call to repentance” of vs 4.
He speaks of this again in 2Cor 5 talking about future judgment and judged based on deeds “whether they be good or evil”.
Notice that in these first 6 verses we have an Arminian-style motivation - not to engage in man's faulty judgment of others. And there is no sense or expectation that this sin is not to stop or just to continue because we are totally depraved. Rather the argument is to stop.
Romans 2 - if this chapter is only about the failing case, only about the wrath of God - then we will not find success, mercy, reward but only condemnation, wrath, punishment. Let's now let the text reveal which way it will go.
Here is the “succeeding case” explicitly listed by Paul. And it is in the context of God - leading to repentance. We also have the people of God - persevering, doing good and seeking glory and honor. What is the result? The text says immortality and eternal life.
Instead of arguing “God arbitrarily selects some for immortality and eternal life” Paul makes the case for the just and impartial judgment of God that uses the rule of Matt 7 “Not everyone who SAYS Lord lord will enter”.
Barns commentary agrees –
Some have supposed that a “judgment” that is impartial as Paul points to in vs 6 and 11 must “only have failing cases”. But Paul shows in vs 7 that such is not the case. The “Good News” does not require God to arbitrarily be “partial to the FEW of Matt 7” as some have supposed. Rather it allows for God to be “impartial” and to SAVE mankind on that basis!
The “Failing case”: Clearly a contrast is being introduced "but to those who are selfish" - contrasted with what? And notice that the contrast is not of the form “but those whom God did not select will not obey” as Calvinism would have it.
Rather it is in the impartial nature of God to show His impartial justice in the lives of those who freely choose evil while others freely choose repentance. Those who repent, seek eternal glory and honor and persevere. Persevere in what?
You must be on the right path to be approved in perseveringly staying on the right path. It is obvious I know, but worth noting.
So God has now contrasted the good and the wicked, those who persevere on the right path and those who are not even on it. The opposite of such a just, objective just system would be “arbitrary selection” of the saved vs lost. It would be to arbitrarily select some for favor instead of “So loving the World”.
We already know that in the judgment there are two classes - those that receive immortality and those that do not. If it is not clear to us by now that this chapter is dealing with both classes - we need to engage in some remedial reading comprehension.
At this point Paul seems to ask that we "be not deceived" into thinking that some can do evil but find "preferred treatment" because God will “favor the few over the many” of Matt 7. He does not let us suppose that the “many” will be lost for doing evil while the “favored” ones also do evil and yet due to “arbitrary selection and gross partiality to the FEW”, go to heaven. Rather Paul argues that God has called all to repentance and all must comply - there will be no preferred treatment based on status (or even magic phrases) allowing some of the rebels in.
But basic to Paul’s solution is the affirmation that God is NOT partial when it comes to the Gospel – when it comes to Salvation. That means that He is NOT favoring the “few” of Matt 7 over the “many” so that He can save the “Few”. Rather – impartiality demands that ALL be given the same salvation-sequence. ALL have the Holy Spirit convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16:8) and ALL have the Drawing of God (John 12:32) and ALL have the Lord Jesus Christ standing at the door and knocking – and ALL have the SAME promise of the New Covenant that “changes the TREE itself” Matt 7 and writes the Law of God on the heart (Heb 8).
Rather than simply “favoring some over others” the system defined above is “impartial” as God HIMSELF is “Impartial”. This Gospel truth was a huge problem for the Jews and is a big problem for Calvinism.
Now from Romans 1 to 2:3 we have had introduced the subject of God's infallible judgment and contrasted it to man's faulty judgment
Lets pay special attention to the details of the starting Context that PAUL gives in his letter to the Romans and SEE how "choice" plays out in this IMPARTIAL system where the IMPARTIAL God calls ALL to repentance. Instead of this chapter saying “all deserve hell so God is simply sending everyone there” this chapter STARTS with the call of ALL to “repentance”. The mercy and goodness of God that “leads” us to repentance in the Gospel.
Rom 2[/b]
4 or do you think lightly of the riches of his kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?[/b
.
Vs 4 shows us that the mercy - kindness - grace leads us to repent. This chapter starts with the Gospel basics of God's offer to grant repentance and that all need to repent.
Note: The Context for Romans 2 is STARTING with judgment, AND of the mercy of God that leads to repentance.
Let's continue letting the scripture speak for itself;
Paul is adamant that there is a future judgment “according to deeds”. Paul here identifies the “impartial” basis of God’s judgment. Instead of His simply “arbitrarily selecting” some to favor and others to ignore – ALL are judged according to deeds IN the context of the “call to repentance” of vs 4.
He speaks of this again in 2Cor 5 talking about future judgment and judged based on deeds “whether they be good or evil”.
Notice that in these first 6 verses we have an Arminian-style motivation - not to engage in man's faulty judgment of others. And there is no sense or expectation that this sin is not to stop or just to continue because we are totally depraved. Rather the argument is to stop.
Romans 2 - if this chapter is only about the failing case, only about the wrath of God - then we will not find success, mercy, reward but only condemnation, wrath, punishment. Let's now let the text reveal which way it will go.
Here is the “succeeding case” explicitly listed by Paul. And it is in the context of God - leading to repentance. We also have the people of God - persevering, doing good and seeking glory and honor. What is the result? The text says immortality and eternal life.
Instead of arguing “God arbitrarily selects some for immortality and eternal life” Paul makes the case for the just and impartial judgment of God that uses the rule of Matt 7 “Not everyone who SAYS Lord lord will enter”.
Barns commentary agrees –
Some have supposed that a “judgment” that is impartial as Paul points to in vs 6 and 11 must “only have failing cases”. But Paul shows in vs 7 that such is not the case. The “Good News” does not require God to arbitrarily be “partial to the FEW of Matt 7” as some have supposed. Rather it allows for God to be “impartial” and to SAVE mankind on that basis!
The “Failing case”: Clearly a contrast is being introduced "but to those who are selfish" - contrasted with what? And notice that the contrast is not of the form “but those whom God did not select will not obey” as Calvinism would have it.
Rather it is in the impartial nature of God to show His impartial justice in the lives of those who freely choose evil while others freely choose repentance. Those who repent, seek eternal glory and honor and persevere. Persevere in what?
You must be on the right path to be approved in perseveringly staying on the right path. It is obvious I know, but worth noting.
So God has now contrasted the good and the wicked, those who persevere on the right path and those who are not even on it. The opposite of such a just, objective just system would be “arbitrary selection” of the saved vs lost. It would be to arbitrarily select some for favor instead of “So loving the World”.
We already know that in the judgment there are two classes - those that receive immortality and those that do not. If it is not clear to us by now that this chapter is dealing with both classes - we need to engage in some remedial reading comprehension.
At this point Paul seems to ask that we "be not deceived" into thinking that some can do evil but find "preferred treatment" because God will “favor the few over the many” of Matt 7. He does not let us suppose that the “many” will be lost for doing evil while the “favored” ones also do evil and yet due to “arbitrary selection and gross partiality to the FEW”, go to heaven. Rather Paul argues that God has called all to repentance and all must comply - there will be no preferred treatment based on status (or even magic phrases) allowing some of the rebels in.
But basic to Paul’s solution is the affirmation that God is NOT partial when it comes to the Gospel – when it comes to Salvation. That means that He is NOT favoring the “few” of Matt 7 over the “many” so that He can save the “Few”. Rather – impartiality demands that ALL be given the same salvation-sequence. ALL have the Holy Spirit convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16:8) and ALL have the Drawing of God (John 12:32) and ALL have the Lord Jesus Christ standing at the door and knocking – and ALL have the SAME promise of the New Covenant that “changes the TREE itself” Matt 7 and writes the Law of God on the heart (Heb 8).
Rather than simply “favoring some over others” the system defined above is “impartial” as God HIMSELF is “Impartial”. This Gospel truth was a huge problem for the Jews and is a big problem for Calvinism.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
jne1611 said:
There is no need to "make stuff up" the quote was already devastating to your case without your inserting wild ideas into it.
Why not simply answer the point of the texts quoted?
In Romans 2 "God is NOT partial" in Calvinism you get "arbitrary selection" as the way to determine who is saved and who is lost.
A more devastating case against Calvinism could hardly be imagined.
In Christ,
Bob
Devastating? To what? You put drawing in the place of faith, not me. The context of the subject you came in on was faith. And I have to go to bed. I will definitely look at your arguments of Rom. 2. And while I do that. How about you exegete Rom 9 that way.:smilewinkgrin:BobRyan said:
The whole context of Rom. 9 is dealing with salvation & damnation.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
As can be clearly seen, the context is showing the grafting in of the gentiles into Christ's body by God's own hand, not their choice of God, but His choice of them (Verse 25, 26) Verses 31 & 32 show the connection with verse 16. And chapter 11 verses 6 & 7 back this up fully:
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Also as can be seen clearly, the body of Christ is made up of both Jesw & Gentiles. (Verse 24:
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?)
So the words mercy & Hardeneth do involve salvation & damnation!
Rom 9:22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
So you see that God has not failed if people are lost, but has executed Justice & God is given all credit for any being saved! As verse 29 shows "Left to ourselves, we would be like those destroyed by the Lord God!" The text is to plain. Salvation is ALL of God!
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
As can be clearly seen, the context is showing the grafting in of the gentiles into Christ's body by God's own hand, not their choice of God, but His choice of them (Verse 25, 26) Verses 31 & 32 show the connection with verse 16. And chapter 11 verses 6 & 7 back this up fully:
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Also as can be seen clearly, the body of Christ is made up of both Jesw & Gentiles. (Verse 24:
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?)
So the words mercy & Hardeneth do involve salvation & damnation!
Rom 9:22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
So you see that God has not failed if people are lost, but has executed Justice & God is given all credit for any being saved! As verse 29 shows "Left to ourselves, we would be like those destroyed by the Lord God!" The text is to plain. Salvation is ALL of God!
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