What's Wrong with Calvinism?

[BobRyan]

But what is "Worse" is that in 9:22 God shows that the mercy kindness compassion and long suffering of God includes "Vessels of WRATH prepared for destruction"!! -- The VERY Point Calvinism had so hoped to avoid!!

Calvinism NEEDED the focus to be "Mercy ONLY on the FEW of Matt 7 but NO MERCY on the MANY of Matt 7".

But that error was totally debunked since the point in Romans 2 is that it is the GOODNESS of God that leads to repentance and in Romans 9 it depends on God WHO DOES have Mercy! – The “Does not have mercy, DOES not call to repentance” texts – are missing from Romans 9 AND Romans 2.

The chapter did not END with 9:21 as Calvinism had hoped and it starts BEFORE vs 19. So the "answer" to the question above is found not ONLY in 9:15-16 but also in vs 22.[/b]

The Calvinist challenges -

So if He had stopped at verse 21 you say then that would prove limited atonement? Yes or no?[/QUOTE]

Nope. Because God already said [b]"God so loved the WORLD... REALLY"![/b] and God says in 1John 4 that Christ was given as "The Savior of the WORLD" and God says in John 6 "The Life I give FOR THE WORLD is my own flesh" and God already said in 2 Peter 3 "God is NOT willing for ANY to Perish but for ALL to come to repentance" and God already said that Christ is "The Atoning Sacrifice for OUR SIN and not for OUR sin only but for the Sins of the WHOLE WORLD" in 1John 2:2 and ...

But if Rom 9:19-21 were the "only text in all of scripture" with nothing before and nothing after (as Calvinism so often needs to cast its proofs) THEN Calvinism would have a leg to stand on.

IF Rom 9:21 had ended the chapter and 9:19 started it without GIVING the 9:15-16 and 9:22 ANSWER -- then Calvinism could simply "make up the answer" for 9:21 (as it does today).

As has already been quoted (and omitted from your response) the 9:15-16 and 9:22 ANSWER to 9:21 is precisely what Calvinism "hopes to avoid".

The answer from chapter 9 for 9:21 is God's OWN ANSWER showing that it is God who "DOES have MERCY"[/b] not the Calvinist idea of despot god "WHO DOES NOT HAVE MERCY[/b]" on the MANY of Matt 7.

Instead of God DRAWING ALL[/b] (John 12:32) and "So Loving the WORLD"[/b] John 3:16 -- Calvinism is hoping to find a text saying "God has mercy on just the FEW and so loves the FEW and draws only the FEW"...

Sadly for Calvinists - that "Calvinist bible" is missing.


Romans 9 shows God Having mercy on the Lost as well as the saved - this actually negates the whole limited atonement thing for Calvinism!!
Notice the patience of God in Romans 2:4 and 9:22

Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?(NASB)
4Don't you realize how kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Or don't you care? Can't you see how kind he has been in giving you time to turn from your sin? (NLT)
4Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?(ESV)

Romans 9
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

He DID SO - for what reason? He Endured with Much patience - SO that He could MAKE KNOWN the riches of His Glory??

Hold it. How does it convey the "riches of God's Glory" to the "vessels of mercy" - to show mercy and kindness and longsuffering upon those that God foreknows will ultimately reject Him?
In the Calvinist model – God is only “tricking the saints by His apparent concern for the lost”.
In the Arminian model – God is serious. His effort for the lost – is real.

This IS the Arminian argument that the JUSTICE of God is shown by His compassion, kindness and efforts to reach the lost – "I will Draw ALL unto ME" John 12:32. Paul is making the case that in the EFFORT God makes toward those that He KNOWS will not be saved by their own choice - God is REVEALING his Glory to the saints that ARE saved.
The saints are SEEING God be patient and caring EVEN of the Lost - and the text says that REVEALS to them - His Glory.

Limited atonement fails here - and so does the concept that God arbitrarily predestined them to be lost because the combination of longsuffering and effort for the lost would not "show the riches of Gods glory" IF it could be proven that God arbitrarily predestined their failure.

God is "Not willing that ANY should perish"2Peter 3 and Paul declares that God is "Calling all men everywhere to REPENT" - but yet He still knows the end from the beginning and so - STILL chooses to endure with much patience those who will be destroyed.

(And that principle "of the God that never changes" remains true EVEN in the fires of Rev 14:10-11 where they are burned "IN our Presence". The Presence of Christ "AND His Holy Ones")

Rom 10
25 As He says also in Hosea,
“I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’”
26 “AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ‘YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,’
THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.”
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;
28 FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.”
29 And just as Isaiah foretold,
“UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,
WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.”>>

Oh no WORSE for the Calvinist because INSTEAD of selecting the saved just from the Soevereignly CHOSEN NATION - He is going to BOTH the CHOSEN (Holy Nation, Royal Priesthood) and the non-chosen GENTILES.

More BAD news - He claims that He SHOWS mercy EVEN to the finally-lost FOR the benefit of the saved. He shows that LIMITTING His mercy JUST to the saved would not be as much benefit FOR THE SAVED as EXTENDING it to BOTH groups. Hmmmm what a devastating blow to Calvinism. We commend Paul - the inspired author of the book of Romans for showing details that reveal God showing His MERCY and KINDNESS to BOTH the chosen and the non-chosen. B]For it is the KINDNESS of God that LEADS you to repentance" Rom 2:4.

Rom 10
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33 just as it is written,
“BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”

 

[BobRyan]

{Wow - NOW God is really trouncing the entire sovereignly CHOSEN/ROYAL/HOLY nation by CONTRAST with the NOT-CHOSEN Gentiles. End of Calvinism.) How could that be?? IN the Model of Calvinism what is "supposed to happen" is the utter disregard for those "NOT Chosen" and "should have been" sole concern - and sovereignly directed success for the "Chosen", sovereignly elect and chosen at Sinai.


Notice the definition for "LAW of Righteousness" and how that is contrasted to the gentiles who DID "attain Righteousness". The term "LAW of Righteousness" being pursued by the Jews is a :Law pursued APART from FAITH and "as though it were by WORKS".

It is clearly introduced as - apart from Christ, apart from Faith, Stumbling over Christ rather than receiving Him - because Christ declares that all are sinners and all need a savior.

 

[Jarthur001]

It is post like these last few that reminds me why I stopped posting in the "Other Christian" threads. The "cut and paste" master, over loads the thread with old stuff that has been gone over so many times its not funny. Notice how he only post one line of text...and not the full exchange, or even the subject matter. This stuff is so old the links no longer work. I would like to see some new ideas that really work this time. This is much like the books wrote by freewillers. In the books they make one quote from 100 men and try to link them together as it was one big statement. This is the only way they can make it work. Its much like the cut and paste of the old ransom note by kidnappers. I word pulled from here...and a word pulled from there...and if you place them all together and read them as i posted them. it is then that the point is made. Why not just address the Bible in the full context.

A great way to see this misleading maddness, is to follow the verses and read the context. Notice how Romans 9 is always linked to Matt 7. Let every reader read the context. Matt 7 is talking about judgment and all judgments are AFTER matters...where as Romans 9 is clearly about election. Election has nothing to do with being just. Election is the act of Gods mercy. Also election is BEFORE matters.

One more and I will leave the rest for your own study..

Bob says....

The Calvinist challenges -
So if He had stopped at verse 21 you say then that would prove limited atonement? Yes or no?

Nope. Because God already said "God so loved the WORLD... REALLY"! and God says in 1John 4 that Christ was given as "The Savior of the WORLD" and God says in John 6 "The Life I give FOR THE WORLD is my own flesh" and God already said in 2 Peter 3 "God is NOT willing for ANY to Perish but for ALL to come to repentance" and God already said that Christ is "The Atoning Sacrifice for OUR SIN and not for OUR sin only but for the Sins of the WHOLE WORLD" in 1John 2:2 and ...

But if Rom 9:19-21 were the "only text in all of scripture" with nothing before and nothing after (as Calvinism so often needs to cast its proofs) THEN Calvinism would have a leg to stand on.

IF Rom 9:21 had ended the chapter and 9:19 started it without GIVING the 9:15-16 and 9:22 ANSWER -- then Calvinism could simply "make up the answer" for 9:21 (as it does today).

As has already been quoted (and omitted from your response) the 9:15-16 and 9:22 ANSWER to 9:21 is precisely what Calvinism "hopes to avoid".

The answer from chapter 9 for 9:21 is God's OWN ANSWER showing that it is God who "DOES have MERCY" not the Calvinist idea of despot god "WHO DOES NOT HAVE MERCY[/b]" on the MANY of Matt 7.

Instead of God DRAWING ALL (John 12:32) and "So Loving the WORLD" John 3:16 -- Calvinism is hoping to find a text saying "God has mercy on just the FEW and so loves the FEW and draws only the FEW"...

The quote above is address verse 21 of Romans 9.

If you see though all the smoke one may want to just read the verse. Notice the verse is not even in the post above. So...being this is address verse 21 of chapter 9 in Romans, lets read the verse.

Romans 9

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

The potter is God. Man is the clay. Does God have the POWER over the clay? Can God make one lump of clay unto honour and another lump of clay into dishonour?

I say...God does have the power and God does make as He wills. This is talking of election.

Once you remove the fog around the post above addressing Romans 9, you see above is alot of words and verses but nothing that deals with Romans 9. We look at john...then we look at peter, and back to matt...and back to John...still not addressing Romans 9.

Let me ask it in my own way...

Does God have the power to make man as a man of dishonour? yes or no?

If your anwser is no...please tell me why God has not the power to do so.

If your anwser is yes, God has the power...read the next 2 verse..

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

In Christ...James

 

[Brother Bob]

Still no point. Your doctrine has overlapped itself. God produces fear in the hearts of His people Ps. 110:3. He creates the willingness in them. Phil. 2:13. Man comes to the light that his deeds might be manifest that they "Are Wrought in God"! Under your doctrine God loves men who he never knew in Christ in eternity. Then based on there rejection of Christ in time He puts them in hell & does not love them any more. The Scripture teaches that Christ's people were chosen in him before the foundation of the world. These are the number loved of God. The others "the wrath of God abideth on them" The only difference in the elect & the others is the choice of God for them or they would be damned with the rest.

I didn't write the Scriptures, "God so loved the world", and yes because of unbelief they go to hell. "except ye believe that I am He you shall die in your sins and where I am you cannot come." Again, not my words but the words of the Lord.

As, I said Calvinist have to change the scriptures to fit their theory.

 

[Jarthur001]

I didn't write the Scriptures, "God so loved the world", and yes because of unbelief they go to hell. "except ye believe that I am He you shall die in your sins and where I am you cannot come." Again, not my words but the words of the Lord.

As, I said Calvinist have to change the scriptures to fit their theory.

Good morning Bob,


Lets pickup where we left off..as a add a few things.

God gives life to all. Before God made you to give you anything,
did God foreknow you would be saved and then make you,
or did God make you and then learn you would be saved after He made you,
or did both happen at the same time?

As in Romans 9....

Did God shape the clay into honour, because he knew someday it would be saved, or was the clay shaped to honour and God knows it is honour for it was Him that made the clay that way?

Freewillers claim election comes this way...God foreknows some will believe and then elects.

When did God know what He knows? Man has a beginning. There is a point when man was not. This time is before God made man. After, is the time after God made man.

1) God knew ..Before God made

2) God knew...After God made

3) God knew... at the same moment God made



In Christ...James

 

[jne1611]

But what is "Worse" is that in 9:22 God shows that the mercy kindness compassion and long suffering of God includes "Vessels of WRATH prepared for destruction"!! -- The VERY Point Calvinism had so hoped to avoid!!

Calvinism NEEDED the focus to be "Mercy ONLY on the FEW of Matt 7 but NO MERCY on the MANY of Matt 7".

But that error was totally debunked since the point in Romans 2 is that it is the GOODNESS of God that leads to repentance and in Romans 9 it depends on God WHO DOES have Mercy! – The “Does not have mercy, DOES not call to repentance” texts – are missing from Romans 9 AND Romans 2.

The chapter did not END with 9:21 as Calvinism had hoped and it starts BEFORE vs 19. So the "answer" to the question above is found not ONLY in 9:15-16 but also in vs 22.[/b]

The Calvinist challenges -

So if He had stopped at verse 21 you say then that would prove limited atonement? Yes or no?[/QUOTE]

Nope. Because God already said [b]"God so loved the WORLD... REALLY"![/b] and God says in 1John 4 that Christ was given as "The Savior of the WORLD" and God says in John 6 "The Life I give FOR THE WORLD is my own flesh" and God already said in 2 Peter 3 "God is NOT willing for ANY to Perish but for ALL to come to repentance" and God already said that Christ is "The Atoning Sacrifice for OUR SIN and not for OUR sin only but for the Sins of the WHOLE WORLD" in 1John 2:2 and ...

But if Rom 9:19-21 were the "only text in all of scripture" with nothing before and nothing after (as Calvinism so often needs to cast its proofs) THEN Calvinism would have a leg to stand on.

IF Rom 9:21 had ended the chapter and 9:19 started it without GIVING the 9:15-16 and 9:22 ANSWER -- then Calvinism could simply "make up the answer" for 9:21 (as it does today).

As has already been quoted (and omitted from your response) the 9:15-16 and 9:22 ANSWER to 9:21 is precisely what Calvinism "hopes to avoid".

The answer from chapter 9 for 9:21 is God's OWN ANSWER showing that it is God who "DOES have MERCY"[/b] not the Calvinist idea of despot god "WHO DOES NOT HAVE MERCY[/b]" on the MANY of Matt 7.

Instead of God DRAWING ALL[/b] (John 12:32) and "So Loving the WORLD"[/b] John 3:16 -- Calvinism is hoping to find a text saying "God has mercy on just the FEW and so loves the FEW and draws only the FEW"...

Sadly for Calvinists - that "Calvinist bible" is missing.


Romans 9 shows God Having mercy on the Lost as well as the saved - this actually negates the whole limited atonement thing for Calvinism!!
Notice the patience of God in Romans 2:4 and 9:22


He DID SO - for what reason? He Endured with Much patience - SO that He could MAKE KNOWN the riches of His Glory??

Hold it. How does it convey the "riches of God's Glory" to the "vessels of mercy" - to show mercy and kindness and longsuffering upon those that God foreknows will ultimately reject Him?
In the Calvinist model – God is only “tricking the saints by His apparent concern for the lost”.
In the Arminian model – God is serious. His effort for the lost – is real.

This IS the Arminian argument that the JUSTICE of God is shown by His compassion, kindness and efforts to reach the lost – "I will Draw ALL unto ME" John 12:32. Paul is making the case that in the EFFORT God makes toward those that He KNOWS will not be saved by their own choice - God is REVEALING his Glory to the saints that ARE saved.
The saints are SEEING God be patient and caring EVEN of the Lost - and the text says that REVEALS to them - His Glory.

Limited atonement fails here - and so does the concept that God arbitrarily predestined them to be lost because the combination of longsuffering and effort for the lost would not "show the riches of Gods glory" IF it could be proven that God arbitrarily predestined their failure.

God is "Not willing that ANY should perish"2Peter 3 and Paul declares that God is "Calling all men everywhere to REPENT" - but yet He still knows the end from the beginning and so - STILL chooses to endure with much patience those who will be destroyed.

(And that principle "of the God that never changes" remains true EVEN in the fires of Rev 14:10-11 where they are burned "IN our Presence". The Presence of Christ "AND His Holy Ones")



Oh no WORSE for the Calvinist because INSTEAD of selecting the saved just from the Soevereignly CHOSEN NATION - He is going to BOTH the CHOSEN (Holy Nation, Royal Priesthood) and the non-chosen GENTILES.

More BAD news - He claims that He SHOWS mercy EVEN to the finally-lost FOR the benefit of the saved. He shows that LIMITTING His mercy JUST to the saved would not be as much benefit FOR THE SAVED as EXTENDING it to BOTH groups. Hmmmm what a devastating blow to Calvinism. We commend Paul - the inspired author of the book of Romans for showing details that reveal God showing His MERCY and KINDNESS to BOTH the chosen and the non-chosen. B]For it is the KINDNESS of God that LEADS you to repentance" Rom 2:4.

OK. So now we have Bob's warped idea that Rom. 9:22 shows God long suffering for the vessels of wrath? Bob seems to think that God was really waiting on Pharaoh to repent! No the idea is that God put up with the wicked for the time allotted to show His power and goodness to them when He destroyed the wicked. And I asked for an exegeses to Rom. 9, not the whole Bible. You notice on his sugar text he did not cut such corners.

 

[jne1611]

Reply to Bob's Rom 2 claim

OK Bob. You seem to think that Rom 2 shows that Calvinisms claim of unconditional selective choice by God for some men is destroyed by the fact that Paul commands us not to judge according to iniquity. 1st Paul was addressing the Jews as can be seen clearly from verse 17. He is showing them their self righteous attitude toward the gentiles is wrong. Nowhere is he dealing with judging whether God made selective choice among people. If so where? I know of no Calvinist that has ever made claims of knowing who the non - elect are. So your charge of unconditional election being a judgement on people falls to the ground of a contextual interpretation of the Word of God. Calvinism does not determine the non elect, we just preach that God has. Throw your accusations at God. You have already any way. I have many Calvinistic commentaries & non of them skip Rom 2. You are making a straw man every time you post on here. Why don't you address head on the doctrine of predestination from the texts that talk about it instead of running to passages that have nothing to do with it? You then go on to say that Paul's doctrine of judgement according to works is an Armenian motivator. So are you taking these verses to teach salvation by works?

 

[Brother Bob]

When did God know what He knows? Man has a beginning. There is a point when man was not. This time is before God made man. After, is the time after God made man.

1) God knew ..Before God made

2) God knew...After God made

3) God knew... at the same moment God made



In Christ...James

Romans, chapter 11
33: O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34: For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?


Perhaps James;
You could point me to some scripture that will teach me these things. I can only read back to the creation and then I can only read what God gives us to understand. You are going beyond the realm of the mind of man into attempts to reach the mind of God. I can't do that but maybe you can help me?

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Bob,

Romans, chapter 11
33: O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34: For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?

Indeed..and .."Every purpose is established by counsel: and with good advice make war."
and..
"There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD."
and..

Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him????

With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering.

All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.

To whom then will ye liken God????? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?????

The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.

He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.

Have ye not known???????? have ye not heard????????? hath it not been told you from the beginning????????? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?????????

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.

Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.

To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.


.......For......

Eph 1..."Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself"

According to Eph 1....

>>This is the great mystery of His will, and it has been shown to us. It is election.<< ​

Or at least in part. Are there other things we do not know about His will? Yes. But He has told us in His Word that the mystery of His will in salvation is that He choose us.

Matt 11...shows us the mystery of His will...

25At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

Romans 8...
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Ti 3
5He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but because of His own pity and mercy, by [the] cleansing [bath] of the new birth (regeneration) and renewing of the Holy Spirit,


BOB SAYS......
Perhaps James;
You could point me to some scripture that will teach me these things. I can only read back to the creation and then I can only read what God gives us to understand. You are going beyond the realm of the mind of man into attempts to reach the mind of God. I can't do that but maybe you can help me?

This is what the Bible is telling us when it says ..."Before the world was made"...Foreknowing..."from the beginning"...."predestinated"..."Foreordination"......"afore"...this all happened before Man was...and God know as he made each one of us.

2 Thess. 2.13: "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because He has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and faith in the truth."

Eph 1
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


1 tim 1
9[For it is He] Who delivered and saved us and called us with a calling in itself holy and leading to holiness [to a life of consecration, a vocation of holiness]; [He did it] not because of anything of merit that we have done, but because of and to further His own purpose and grace (unmerited favor) which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began [eternal ages ago]

Romans 9...
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

In Christ..James

 

[jne1611]

Hello Bob,


This is what the Bible is telling us when it says ..."Before the world was made"...Foreknowing..."from the beginning"...."predestinated"..."Foreordination"......"afore"...this all happened before Man was...and God know as he made each one of us.

2 Thess. 2.13: "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because He has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and faith in the truth."

Eph 1
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


1 tim 1
9[For it is He] Who delivered and saved us and called us with a calling in itself holy and leading to holiness [to a life of consecration, a vocation of holiness]; [He did it] not because of anything of merit that we have done, but because of and to further His own purpose and grace (unmerited favor) which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began [eternal ages ago]

Romans 9...
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

In Christ..James

Bro. Bob. This is predestination described in the last verse quoted. And it is contrasted with the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

 

[Brother Bob]

2 Thess. 2.13: "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because He has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and faith in the truth."

through sanctification of the Spirit and faith in the truth." (This is how you are changed,if you believe)

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

by Jesus Christ to himself (This is what is predestinated)

1 tim 1
9[For it is He] Who delivered and saved us and called us with a calling in itself holy and leading to holiness [to a life of consecration, a vocation of holiness]; [He did it] not because of anything of merit that we have done, but because of and to further His own purpose and grace (unmerited favor) which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began [eternal ages ago]

1 tim 1
9[For it is He] Who delivered and saved us and called us with a calling in itself holy which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. (This is how it was going to happen, in Christ)

vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (our bodies now)
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (Our bodies when they are resurrected, of which there is a Glory reserved in Heaven for us for Jesus stood as a slain Lamb before the foundation of the world.)

 

[Brother Bob]

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

In Christ..JamesBro. Bob. This is predestination described in the last verse quoted. And it is contrasted with the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

his glory on the vessels of mercy of which we shall receive in the resurrection for the outward man is still waiting on deliverance. afore prepared unto glory, By Jesus standing as a slain Lamb before the foundation of the world.

 

[jne1611]

his glory on the vessels of mercy of which we shall receive in the resurrection for the outward man is still waiting on deliverance. afore prepared unto glory, By Jesus standing as a slain Lamb before the foundation of the world.

Bro. Bob. Give the Scripture that tells you election or predestination is based on anything but God's will.

 

[Brother Bob]

It is God's will, how could I do that. After He sees you believe, he predestinates you to be conformed to the image of His son. (Be Christ like) You are a changed man and are no longer of the world but chose out of the world by God. So after you believe it is His will. His Spirit strives with you to repent. He said, I stand at the door and knock and if any man will hear my voice, I will come in and sup with him and he with Me and I will go no more out. The Devil's spirit is striving with the same man also so that man must choose which master he will serve. If he chooses God, then it has been predestinated that he be changed to be Christlike.

 

[jne1611]

It is God's will, how could I do that. After He sees you believe, he predestinates you to be conformed to the image of His son. (Be Christ like) You are a changed man and are no longer of the world but chose out of the world by God. So after you believe it is His will. His Spirit strives with you to repent. He said, I stand at the door and knock and if any man will hear my voice, I will come in and sup with him and he with Me and I will go no more out. The Devil's spirit is striving with the same man also so that man must choose which master he will serve. If he chooses God, then it has been predestinated that he be changed to be Christlike.

The reason you don't have a Scripture if you'll think about it, is that there is not a Scripture in the Bible that says God predestines or elects based on what He knows we will do. + the fact that He must give us the faith to believe.

 

[Jarthur001]

through sanctification of the Spirit and faith in the truth." (This is how you are changed,if you believe)

by Jesus Christ to himself (This is what is predestinated)

1 tim 1
9[For it is He] Who delivered and saved us and called us with a calling in itself holy which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. (This is how it was going to happen, in Christ)

Hello Bob,

We will address what this Election/predestinated means in a moment. For now...If you will remember, these last few verses was address what you said....

BOB:..I can only read back to the creation and then I can only read what God gives us to understand.

These verse were posted to show when. That this happened before creation.

Thus the post that had all the verses that says..."Before the world was made"...Foreknowing..."from the beginning"...."predestinated"..."Foreordination".. ...."afore"..

Do you agree with the Bible when it says...that whatever election maybe in meaning, that election happen before...."Before the world was made"?


In Christ...James

 

[Brother Bob]

The reason you don't have a Scripture if you'll think about it, is that there is not a Scripture in the Bible that says God predestines or elects based on what He knows we will do. + the fact that He must give us the faith to believe.

Don't you know that Jesus stood as a slain Lamb before the foundation of the world and it was predestinated that we would receive redemption the His blood and that we would be chosen out of the world and be conformed to be (Christlike), also predestinated that we would be justified by the blood of the same Lamb, also that we would receive a vessel unto honor in the resurrection. That has all been predestinated for the children of God, the (believer).

 

[Brother Bob]

We will address what this Election/predestinated means in a moment. For now...If you will remember, these last few verses was address what you said....

Hello James;
If you will remember also, I said I could only give what the Scriptures give me. I am not going to try to enter God's mind on the unknown thoughts of His mind.

Do you agree with the Bible when it says...that whatever election maybe in meaning, that election happen before...."Before the world was made"?

I understand it to be when He made man James, He MADE him subject to vanity. How He was going to redeem him was before, but He made made with this choice. You know, influence (His Spirit) and Decision (our choice).

 

[Jarthur001]

It is God's will, how could I do that. After He sees you believe, he predestinates you to be conformed to the image of His son. (Be Christ like) .

Again we ask...

Did God know only after He saw you believe and learn from you?

Or did God know before He looked..

Or..Did God always know even before He made man?

 

[Brother Bob]

Again we ask...

Why is it we James? You always need someone to boost you for some reason.

Again we ask...

Did God know only after He saw you believe and learn from you?

Or did God know before He looked..

Or..Did God always know even before He made man?

God knew when He saw me choose but that was before I was ever born, but the reason it was before I was born is because God is not bound by time as you and I. God saw me choose when there was a me to God. But, when there was a me to God, He saw be beginning of me to the glorified me. He is an all knowing God.

Now you will answer me before I answer anymore.

1. Is God an all knowing God.

2. Did God love all His creation.

3. Was it predestinated that man would be saved by the blood of Christ.

4. Has God seen your death, and the death of every man?