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What's Wrong with Calvinism?

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Helen

<img src =/Helen2.gif>
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: I am so pressed for time this week I may not be able to. I will if I find he time. I would appreciate if you could just post a point or so concerning the issue at hand for us consider. Thanks.


I'm sorry, but you have the time here on BB. The articles are short, researched, and biblically referenced. Choose one. It won't take you any more time than reading through the responses here. If you are really interested in what I think is wrong with Calvinism, any one of those articles is a start.

Thanks.
 

BD17

New Member
Helen said:
succintly put, Ed.

I have some very specific arguments with Calvinism, only a few of which are here (and yes I wrote every word of all three of them)

http://www.setterfield.org/calvinism.htm
http://www.setterfield.org/elect.htm
http://www.setterfield.org/Esau.html

Helen read your aritcles and sorry to say found it riddled with your own pre-suppositions. You went to read the bible and study with the INTENT of disproving Calvinism. SO already your mind was blocked to the possibility that it is the TRUTH. In your first article you say and I quote..."That is really dumb. Who could love a God like that? Who could believe that?"

You see you are already defining God by what you want Him to be. You cannot do a study unless you are open to having your mind changed, you were not. There are many other places where you define what you want God to be, take your baby argument for example you presuppose that you love your child more than God, yet election has nothing to do with love, it has to do with God's purpose for His creation. ALL mankind deserves to die, yet God has grace on some, that is what makes it Grace.

And your article on election again done with the intent to show election to mean something that you like, something that makes you feel better about your god.

You cannot do studies in that manner.
 

corndogggy

Active Member
Site Supporter
Without a structured theology, you get too many situations where everybody believes something different due to their translation of the bible. If you don't think this is true, just look around this forum, seems like everybody believes everybody else is going to hell. Now, if something like this binds people together under a common belief with a common goal, I just really don't see why it is so bad. The Catholics have a system like this and I seriously doubt that there is nearly as much vastly differing beliefs within their faith.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Helen read your aritcles and sorry to say found it riddled with your own pre-suppositions. You went to read the bible and study with the INTENT of disproving Calvinism. SO already your mind was blocked to the possibility that it is the TRUTH. In your first article you say and I quote..."That is really dumb. Who could love a God like that? Who could believe that?"
sounds like (to me) you did exactly what you accused Helen of doing...reading her articles with your own pre-suppositions.
 

BD17

New Member
webdog said:
sounds like (to me) you did exactly what you accused Helen of doing...reading her articles with your own pre-suppositions.

No pre-suppositions at all just basing it on HER words.
 

Helen

<img src =/Helen2.gif>
I think I made it very clear in each of the articles that I went into the particular subject treated with not only an open mind, but with curiosity about what the Bible was really saying in each case. To accuse me of otherwise is simply a false accusation.
 

BD17

New Member
Helen said:
I think I made it very clear in each of the articles that I went into the particular subject treated with not only an open mind, but with curiosity about what the Bible was really saying in each case. To accuse me of otherwise is simply a false accusation.

You made it very clear that you did not agree and that is what caused you to look. You looked for things to support your view. And ignored things that disagreed.
 

Helen

<img src =/Helen2.gif>
BD17 said:
You made it very clear that you did not agree and that is what caused you to look. You looked for things to support your view. And ignored things that disagreed.

Please show me what I ignored in any one of the articles and I will be happy to address it both here and there.
 

EdSutton

New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: Sorry Ed to hear about your pain issues. Life sure has some 'not so funny painful twists' sometimes.

How does Calvinism present Lot?

As for salvation by works, I personally believe the charge is more often than not hollow and unfounded due to a failure to distinguish or understand the sense in which conditions of salvation are used. Would you mind telling us why you see both as upholding salvation by works?

Only hurts when I attempt to throw something like eggs or rocks! :smilewinkgrin: :tongue3: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed
 

BD17

New Member
Helen said:
Please show me what I ignored in any one of the articles and I will be happy to address it both here and there.

Well how about Romans 1. What happened to the rest of the book? Did it not agree with what your views are?
 

Helen

<img src =/Helen2.gif>
BD17 said:
Well how about Romans 1. What happened to the rest of the book? Did it not agree with what your views are?

That's a pretty vague answer. What in Romans, specifically, do you think I ignored? I find nothing in Romans 1 which denies the freedom of men to make a true and real choice. What I do find there is that when men choose against the truth on a consistent basis, God finally gives them over to the only thing that is left -- the lie. And all it entails.

What do you disagree with there?
 

BD17

New Member
Helen said:
That's a pretty vague answer. What in Romans, specifically, do you think I ignored? I find nothing in Romans 1 which denies the freedom of men to make a true and real choice. What I do find there is that when men choose against the truth on a consistent basis, God finally gives them over to the only thing that is left -- the lie. And all it entails.

What do you disagree with there?

There is nothing there to show that man has a choice either. All it does is show the nature of man. Which is fallen, it also shows that there was something keeping them in check what was that thing. God. God GAVE them over this shws that something was keeping them from going over.
 

Helen

<img src =/Helen2.gif>
Which is why we let Bible explain Bible. Would you please tell me who you think the Lord is speaking to in Isaiah 1:18-20?
 

Plain Old Bill

New Member
BD17. I see in your profile that you are REFORMED. That of course tells me you san see all of this with an unbiased eye and that you have no agenda of your own, Right?
 

J. Jump

New Member

Of course not :) That's why it is really pointless to get into these discussions with people that already have their mind made up one way or the other on either side. They say they are open minded but they really aren't.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
What's wrong with Calvinism?
Back in June of 1975, the Fundamental Baptist Fellowship put out an Information Bulletin which contained an article about the positon of John Calvin, and compared it to the Baptist Distinctives which we hold today.
Here it is:
THE POSITION OF THE REFORMER JOHN CALVIN AND THE BAPTI5TIC DISTINCTIVE5
One of the most puzzling developments today is the crusading program of some Baptists to make John Calvin acceptable to Bible-believing Baptist. It comes as a shock for right-thinking believers when they realize that he rejected every single historic distinctive without exception. For example:
1. The liberty of the soul and freedom of religion he opposed with all the vigor of his soul, regarding all Baptists of his time as heretics.
2. The regenerate church membership concept was anathema under his Presbyterian doctrine of the church.
3. The autonomy of the local church was ruled as false doctrine in his ecclesiastical system.
4. The principle of separation of church and state was repudiated with all the power of his predestinated being, believing as he did that the magistrates sword must enforce his Reformed faith.
5. The baptism only of believers by immersion in water stirred the fires of indignation in his heart.
6. The sole authority of the Bible as the Word of God was obviously no more than a hollow profession at best, since his system was loaded with so many unscriptural doctrines which cannot be found in the Word of God.
And all this is in addition to his espousal of amillennialist interpretation of Scripture, covenant theology, infant baptism, limited atonement, unacceptable views of the Lord's Table, political alliances, religious compromises, limited reformation and bloody persecution. Fundamental Baptists who reject Arminianism need to be warned against the crusading Calvinists' strategy of branding everyone who does not accept their four or five point hardline position as being Arminian in their theology, and of equating their Calvinism as synonymous with the Christian Faith. It is infuriating to old-fashioned Baptists who are committed to the historic Baptistic distinctives and who know something of the history of Baptists and their New Testament heritage, to have historic Baptist doctrine and Calvin's Reformed faith considered as one and the same. In the light of the total and complete Baptist rejection of Reformation theology and the vehement hostility of John Calvin toward the Baptists, it is an eye-opening experience to realize that some crusading Calvinists consider a Baptist and a Calvinist as one and the same. Calvinism is one label which is expendable in Baptist circles. Someone recently observed that this brilliant Reformer could never qualify on the faculty of any Baptist Seminary, nor would his Institutes be allowed in any orthodox Baptist Seminary as a textbook in systematic theology. Baptists would do well to get their heads together, instead of dividing over this theological stranger, and return to straight thinking in relation to the doctrinal standards of the Word of God. We need a new commitment to "whosoever” preaching, evangelistic passion and missionary outreach.

I believe these are good enough reasons not to accept Calvinism in any of its various forms.
DHK
 
The article DHK posted was almost what I was hoping someone would post. Here the author lists several distinctives between what he sees as Baptist and Calvinism. The problem though is this. When one thinks of Calvinism, the five points or at least direct issues involving them come to mind. They are the heart and soul IMO of Calvinism, not the peripheral issues such as infant baptism etc. Out of the five points, the author only mentions ONE single point that I can gather that he would seem to disagree with, and even then he offers no alternative explanation to it. That one issue is limited atonement.

Am I to assume that most Baptists would generally believe in the other four points, just disregarding the one issue? How about you DHK? Is this the only point you disagree with, limited atonement, or do you even agree with that point? IF you disagree with limited atonement, can we assume you agree with the other four points, TUI and P?
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Many 3 point Calvinists among Baptists and also Arminians -- so no need to think they are all wild-eyed 4-pointers or the more reserved and reasoned 5-pointers.

In Christ,

Bob
 
I have a question for Bob Ryan. (assuming all others know they are always invited to respond)

You state repeatedly that God draws all men. You have yet to show one verse that states that is so with salvation and have not to my knowledge responded to my posts concerning this issue. (Its a free world :) ) When you say that God draws all men, you actually do not say ‘drawn to salvation,’ although that is what it implies. It is a given that God draws all men in the sense of the Holy Spirit convicting them, and God granting to all enough knowledge of what is morally right via their conscience that they become a law unto themselves. Show us from Scripture that all are ‘drawn to salvation.”
 
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