What's Wrong with Calvinism?

[Blammo]

:smilewinkgrin: I know your joking as was I, but you might be shocked at the people who would use that kind of jumble as doctrine.

Right you are. One time I had a guy comparing the works of Calvin with the word of God.

 

[jne1611]

Right you are. One time I had a guy comparing the works of Calvin with the word of God.

I don't advocate holding anyone's works up next to the word of God! God's Word doesn't need props! It stands plane enough for those who want to believe what it says!

 

[jne1611]

Right you are. One time I had a guy comparing the works of Calvin with the word of God.

Matter of fact, I think its sad that every time you bring up the subject of election or predestination etc. Calvin's name usually gets drug into it & then it becomes Calvin's word when the doctrine was delivered long before Calvin was born!
I believe a lot of people like to drag Calvin into the conversation because of this. It's a good excuse to ignore the fact that both doctrines are Biblical!

 

[Jarthur001]

Having shown the false claim of mans freewill and Gods will mixing together, there are other things that we must now turn to.

"Foreknowing" is one of those things. This word has been misused by the non-Calvinist for years. What is the real Bible meaning?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

jne1611, "This is nothing but a bunch of nonsense." --- of BobRyan's
GE:
And so say I and all of us. BobRyan, are you paid to post on BB?

 

[jne1611]

jne1611, "This is nothing but a bunch of nonsense." --- of BobRyan's
GE:
And so say I and all of us. BobRyan, are you paid to post on BB?

Good Question.

 

[jne1611]

HP are you still there? If so, explain to me how it is that you take the doctrine of total inability? And provide me with some Scriptures you have studied that prove to you what you believe about the subject.

 

[BobRyan]

Ok it is pretty obvious that the Calvinist future scenario is perfectly correct - (particularly since in all the ranting of Calvinists so far - no actual reponse to the details IN the scenario)

But what about an equivalent Arminian future scenario?

Would it ALSO look like this???

------------------------------------------

The Classic Calvinist Future Scenario​

​

The inner quotes contain “The scenario”. Everything else is my commentary. (Of course the entire thing is my own test scenario for Calvinism)





Calvinist future scenario complete!


Notice the “focus” in that perfect Calvinist utopian future - is always on “you” the one that is arbitrarily selected and then justifying the callous disregard of your precious child under the guise of “Well God does not HAVE to care about ANYONE just be glad YOU made it”.
Fascinating!




All well and good for the Cavlinist position - but what about the Arminian view?

And for us Arminians (and our 3-Pt Calvinist Bretheren) - well we will just have to be content with the fact that God really DOES "So Love the World" not merely the "Few " of Matt 7 - and He is the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT our sins only - but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2::2.

We will have to be content in all eternity with the God that DOES Love ALL and died for ALL and "IS not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to Repentance".

Somehow that will have to help us enjoy eternity too instead of viewing God as the source of partial and arbitrary decisions they Calvinism does it. . I wonder how we will fair by comparison.

-----------------------------------------

Hint: It would not.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Its hiding behind this mass of human reasoning mixed with a few Scriptures that's the reason you cant get anyone to see the truth. The average hearer probably thought he was quoting from the Bible the whole time.

Sorry about quoting so much of the Bible in that last Post -- (I think it referenced... THREE Bible texts)

I will try to slow that down if you prefer.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Brother Bob]

Because God "foreknows" is because He is outside of time as we know it. He sees all the beginning from the end. For Him to foreknow who will "believe" is no great mystery if He can see all things at once. God in His Sovereignity created us so we could choose to believe or not believe. The creature was made subject to vanity, but not willingly but by reason of Him who subjected the same in Hope. That Hope is "Jesus Christ".

One thing we don't have to do and that is change the meaning of: all, whosoever, whomsoever, any, whole world etc.

He died for all but we must believe to receive that blood applied to our soul and wash away our sins.
1 Timothy, chapter 2
5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
7: Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
8: I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting

2Cr 5:15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Think about it, Calvinist has to make an excuse for almost ever bold type above and the half has not been told. This C/A argument goes around and around and where it stops ????????????

 

[jne1611]

Sorry about quoting so much of the Bible in that last Post -- (I think it referenced... THREE Bible texts)

I will try to slow that down if you prefer.

In Christ,

Bob

It would be better if you could just comment on the actual text, instead of a few Scriptures twisted into that mass of ignorance you spewed all over this thread. It is a perfect example of why you cant get people to go to the Bible. Why bother when you have such enticing words of man's wisdom to look to.

 

[BobRyan]

When I point out the obvious that God did not WILL Lucifer and 1/3 of the sinless angels to fall and God did not will sinless perfect Adam to fall ...

James objects by saying that this would leave God "weak".

Under freewill...SOME freely CHOSE...HENCE GOD gives up HIS will and follows what man has choosen....
Bob goes on to say...God chose what man has chose for God knew before hand what man would choose and because God gave up His will (what He really wants) so that He can act out what man has choosen. In other words. We could see this in a few areas, but only looking at one...God elects to salvation, for He must act out what He know man will do. Tis mans freewill that controls God in this great model.

But that "reasoning" is horribly flawed - AND is not a Bible based argument at all. It is simply "imagination" in the extreme by picking on ONE of the MANY examples of God "not getting that perfect result He would WILL because He sovereignly CHOOSES to uphold Free WILL anyway".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

It would be better if you could just comment on the actual text, instead of a few Scriptures twisted into that mass of ignorance you spewed all over this thread.

Instead of whining - try actually referencing "Details" for which you "think" I do not have a blatant Calvinist statement strongly endorsing the every detail you wince at.

 

[jne1611]

Instead of whining - try actually referencing "Details" for which you "think" I do not have a blatant Calvinist statement strongly endorsing the every detail you wince at.

Show me the writings of 1, just 1 Calvinist that ever went on with a big picture of nonsense like you have been going on with. That is pure misrepresentation & ignorance.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Bob,

Because God "foreknows" is because He is outside of time as we know it. He sees all the beginning from the end. For Him to foreknow who will "believe" is no great mystery if He can see all things at once. God in His Sovereignity created us so we could choose to believe or not believe. The creature was made subject to vanity, but not willingly but by reason of Him who subjected the same in Hope. That Hope is "Jesus Christ".

In the order of Gods work, does God make 1st and then know,
or does God know and then make,
or is this all at the same moment?

One thing we don't have to do and that is change the meaning of: all, whosoever, whomsoever, any, whole world etc.

Agree

He died for all but we must believe to receive that blood applied to our soul and wash away our sins.
1 Timothy, chapter 2
5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
7: Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
8: I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting

2Cr 5:15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

I agree with all the verses...but not with your words..

Think about it, Calvinist has to make an excuse for almost ever bold type above and the half has not been told. This C/A argument goes around and around and where it stops ????????????

Not so. We hold to these great verses as we hold to all the Bible.

 

[jne1611]

When I point out the obvious that God did not WILL Lucifer and 1/3 of the sinless angels to fall and God did not will sinless perfect Adam to fall ...

James objects by saying that this would leave God "weak".



But that "reasoning" is horribly flawed - AND is not a Bible based argument at all. It is simply "imagination" in the extreme by picking on ONE of the MANY examples of God "not getting that perfect result He would WILL because He sovereignly CHOOSES to uphold Free WILL anyway".

In Christ,

Bob

How about the hardening of the heart of Pharaoh? What of Rom 9. Do you discount this Scripture as not being Bible Based?

 

[jne1611]

Hello Bob,



In the order of Gods work, does God make 1st and then know,
or does God know and then make,
or is this all at the same moment?


Agree

I agree with all the verses...but not with your words..


Not so. We hold to these great verses as we hold to all the Bible.

Glad to see you back my friend.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Bob R,

When I point out the obvious that God did not WILL Lucifer and 1/3 of the sinless angels to fall and God did not will sinless perfect Adam to fall ...

James objects by saying that this would leave God "weak".

But that "reasoning" is horribly flawed - AND is not a Bible based argument at all. It is simply "imagination" in the extreme by picking on ONE of the MANY examples of God "not getting that perfect result He would WILL because He sovereignly CHOOSES to uphold Free WILL anyway".

In Christ,

Bob

If one reads my post, one would kind out the words were your words and ideas. Your scenario had key words and ideas that I only highlighted. Don't get mad at me, it was your so called scenario.

 

[Brother Bob]

In the order of Gods work, does God make 1st and then know,
or does God know and then make,
or is this all at the same moment?

Neither
He gives the choice and knows what you choose.

Not so. We hold to these great verses as we hold to all the Bible.

I have seen your answers before James.

 

[Jarthur001]

Glad to see you back my friend.

Hello jne1611.....

I have more time on the weekend.

Press on till He comes brother...


In Christ...James