whats your difference

[johnp.]

Romans 9-11 is clearly addressing Israel.

You are in error as Romans nine: is concerned with God's demonstration of election not with a nation but with His loved ones.

Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: See? God's purpose in election is being spoken of and what the subject is, or who he is, is really irelevant. The passage continues onto an Egyptian who is treated in a most shameful way, not my view but others, just to boost His Own Ego in a demonstration of His power over the most powerful. No other reason. God wanted to show off so He raised a man to power just to destroy him publicly and make a Name for Himself.

He goes on in this fashion by saying God hardens people, how shocking for any reason since it infringes our free will somewhat I think and then He says it doesn't make any difference what man wants man gets what is given even if there is a desire a man will not be saved by that desire but only by God's mercy.

Then, believe it or not, some upstart dares question God? "Why does He blame us for who resists His will?" And as I quoted earlier, rather than excuse Himself He slaps the one in the face and says "Who are you to talk back to me?"

What's that to do with Israel? But then if you are right He ain't been very nice to them has He webdog?

john.

 

[amity]

Don't find it ironic that noone is saved a calvinist?
You had absolutely no outside influence in regards to calvinism? No pastor? Friend? All 5 points of TULIP just flew off the pages of the Bible?

In my case, YES! The little bit I knew about Calvinism before I was "saved" I learned in public high school English literature class. I was not aware of the TULIP doctrine or anything that sophisticated, but just whatever points had been made when we read the Scarlet Letter and Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, etc., which used to be a part of the standard curriculum! I was amazed to find predestination taught in the Bible, but there it was over and over again, and even hidden in teachings that might seem on the surface to have nothing directly to do with predestination at all. It was in the forms of the Old Testament, it was in the parables, it was everywhere, on every page. It was somewhat upsetting at first, actually. I don't think my reaction to it was much different than most peoples' at first, but there it was. I had to either accept it or rationalize my way around it. Then over time I realized it wasn't such a dark doctrine after all, but full of light and beauty.

 

[webdog]

So you had an outside influence even prior to being saved. You were influenced nonetheless, and can't claim no outside influence.

 

[Christlifter]

Easy!

DonnA writes:
"I really am interested in what the different beleifs are, and if you say people don't know what you beleive, then tell us.
Be civil, if at all possible people."

I know of at least six different beliefs in the security of the believer. All believe that God is completely sovereign. All believe that the grace God provides is more than sufficient for salvation. The differences are in man's required response to God's grace.

2. Eternal Security (non- 4/5 point Calvinist).
- Man must accept grace, then cannot reject grace.

This is me, but I agree with 4 pointers on a lot of stuff.

What matters: :jesus::applause::laugh: Amen!

 

[donnA]

Romans 9-11 is clearly addressing Israel. I cannot see how this can be anything but. While Romans was addressed to the church, the church was composed of jews and gentiles. Not all verses dealing with Israel pertain to gentiles.

So right in the middle of talking about christianity, he goes into talking to jews only?
How much of thisn isn't for christians, but for jews only?

26Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession £for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

No, no I don't think it's clear at all. I do think whats clear is that you don't mind twisting scripture when it suits your needs. Which by the way, weakens your position.

 

[amity]

So you had an outside influence even prior to being saved. You were influenced nonetheless, and can't claim no outside influence.

webdoggie, if you can be raised in American Christian culture, saturated as it is with pure Pelagianism, and consider studying The Scarlet Letter to be "outside influence," then I just dunno aboutcha.

 

[Allan]

Amity, though I appriciate the fact you try to keep some from maintaining only two types of theological views (C/A), I am also inclined to explain that you are incorrect to appropriate most non-cals in American culture as Peleganism.

Peleganism believed :

Pelagianism is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature (which, being created from God, was divine), and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without Divine aid. Thus, Adam's sin was "to set a bad example" for his progeny, but his actions did not have the other consequences imputed to Original Sin. Pelagianism views the role of Jesus as "setting a good example" for the rest of humanity (thus counteracting Adam's bad example). In short, humanity has full control, and thus full responsibility, for its own salvation in addition to full responsibility for every sin (the latter insisted upon by both proponents and opponents of Pelagianism). According to Pelagian doctrine, since humanity is no longer in need of any of God's graces beyond the creation of will,[1] Jesus' sacrifice is devoid of its redemptive quality...

Pelagius taught that the human will, tempered in good deeds and rigorous asceticism, was sufficient to live a sinless life. He told his followers that right action on the part of human beings was all that was necessary for salvation. To him, the grace of God was only an added advantage; helpful, but in no way essential. Pelagius disbelieved in original sin, but said that Adam had condemned humankind through bad example, and that Christ’s good example offered humanity a path to salvation, not through sacrifice, but through instruction of the will. Jerome emerged as one of the chief critics of Pelagianism, because, according to Jerome, Pelagius' view essentially denied the work of the Messiah; he personally preferring 'teacher' or 'master' to any epithet implying divine power.

From good ol' Wiki.

This is very much the same theologically as Mormons and JW's and not at all in line with classical Arminianism, which espouses man is Totally depraved and if God by His Grace did not intercede on behalf of sinful man then man was doomed. They center on the "we are saved by Grace through Faith..." and not we come to God as we please and then God bestows grace and salvatin. Also in Arminianism the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus is not devoid of its power but it emphasized in great detail in contrast to the Pelegan and simi-pelegan where it is meaningless except that it is a quaint addition after the fact. This will be shown next.

Calvinists also make a great mistake in assuming the non-cal/non-Arm position is simi-Pelegan but this is do to not understanding the core belief of the simi-Pelegan which is

Semi-Pelagianism is a Christian theological understanding about salvation; that is, how humanity and God are restored to a right relationship. The Semi-Pelagian teaching is derived from the earlier Pelagian teaching about salvation (see below), and teaches that it is necessary for humans to make the first step toward God and then God will complete salvation...

Pelagianism is the teaching that man has the capacity to seek God in and of himself apart from any movement of God or the Holy Spirit. According to semi-Pelagianism, man doesn’t have such an unrestrained capacity, but man and God could cooperate to a certain degree in this salvation effort: man can (unaided by grace) make the first move toward God, and God then completes the salvation process

In this view (simi-peliganism) we actually have more of a traditional Catholic view in that man and God are co-equals in their salvation however man can and does come to God without God in any way reaching out to man (in that view). As seen above God does not seek man (which is in essence the same as the pelegan view the the simi-Pel) however when man seeks after God (with no divine influence attributed) God rewards man by giving him salvation and grace instead of the Pelegan view where we have man earning salvation through good works and grace is just a bonus but not necessary. Again we see God is either secondary according to these veiws as well or al least not primary. However scripture shows God coming to man who of and by himself will not seek God because man is depraved due to his sin nature.

Please note NEITHER OF THESE VEIWS ascribe anything akin to the typical American Non-Cal and their theology. The only similarity is the word free-will.

 

[Allan]

So right in the middle of talking about christianity, he goes into talking to jews only?
How much of thisn isn't for christians, but for jews only?

26Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession £for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

No, no I don't think it's clear at all. I do think whats clear is that you don't mind twisting scripture when it suits your needs. Which by the way, weakens your position.

I noticed you stopped in chapter 8 Donna, Why? Could it possibly be that chapter 9 does in fact show Paul changing the course of his discussion from the Church who is now in the Favor of the Lord and Israel set aside BUT Paul goes through and explains in chapter 9 (Israels past), 10 (Israel at his present time) and 11 (Israel in the future) that they are not as a people goint to be set aside forever because God will still fulfill His promise to His people whom He called out, elected, and calls His own.
Look at chapter 9 Donna and see just how strong the argument is that Webdog puts forth about it speaking of Israel.

Rom 9:1 ¶ I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;

He changes from the Church to speaking OF Israel and how it relates to this new Covenant set forth. As you continue in chapter 9 he speaks of the Patriarchs of Israel and continues the next three chapters about Israel but in chapter 11 he begins to bring the together.

 

[Andy T.]

So you had an outside influence even prior to being saved. You were influenced nonetheless, and can't claim no outside influence.

We aren't saved in a vacuum. We all have outside influences before and after salvation. I was saved in the Nazarene church, but I was aware of a doctrine called Eternal Security. Soon after my coversion, as I began to read the Scriptures with new understanding, I came to embrace that doctrine (I probably embraced it before I realized it, too).

Are you telling me that you have never been influenced by a preacher, teacher, elder, professor, book? Nothing? Everything you believe you have conjured up in the vacuum of your own mind with no outside influence whatsoever? Do you believe that God gifts His Church with teachers to equip the saints? Or is each man on his own?

You appear to be a convinced dispensationalist - are you telling me that you understood all the dispensations and details of such at the moment of your conversion? Are you telling me that you've never read a book or a study that explains dispensational interpretation; that you have completely formed your current theology without the aid of any other believers in Christ through the gift of teaching? If so, then you are truly an amazing mind.

Bottom line is, you are setting up a standard for Calvinists that no one can meet, including yourself.

The reason why I asked about your contempt towards Calvies is that at this point, you are not even arguing against the tenets of Calvinism - you are merely picking on and deriding the testimonies of Calvies themselves. You've gone from attacking the belief (which is fine) to attacking the believer (not fine).

As for you not getting any support from Calvies on this Board, I for one have never stepped foot into the Prayer or Personal forums, and I'm guessing many people don't. I haven't felt called to participate in those, having a hard enough time keeping up with my prayer list for people I know personally. Some people may come to forums like these for companionship, which is fine; but others may come here for other reasons like to learn, etc.

 

[webdog]

webdoggie, if you can be raised in American Christian culture, saturated as it is with pure Pelagianism, and consider studying The Scarlet Letter to be "outside influence," then I just dunno aboutcha.

I never knew what pelagianism was until I came here, and never read The Scarlett Letter, so I really am not sure what you are talking about.

 

[MB]

Hi John P;

webdog.


MB. Studying scripture reveals the truth to us but combining it with the notions of men distort it. You should get yourself better teachers then man, my teachers made the word bloom. They opened up for me a world I had no idea existed. Some He gave to be teachers to teach me. He is exceedingly lavish to me.

john.

The thing everyone should always keep in mind is that there are good teachers and some not so good. The latter can be just a well meaning as the first. I'm always very disapointed when one tells me one thing and scripture says differently. For this reason I study what ever is shown to me very carefully. It isn't because of personal mistrust of any teacher but because of the fact that we all can be mistaken. Scripture isn't mistaken and with prayer it is possible to have just as much understand as any teacher. In some cases even more. I rely heavily on the Holy Spirits guidance in all matters giving His guidance absolute authority.
1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

This anointing is the Holy Spirit.
MB

 

[Andy T.]

A good teacher is one who agrees with me! A bad teacher is one who doesn't agree with me!

 

[webdog]

Now you are starting to get it, Andy

 

[MB]

Hi Donna;

Romans is addressed to
"7To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:"
So isn't the book of Romans written to all believers?

Your right it is but the foreknown are His own people because of Salvation being of the Jews .
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Meaning that the Jews were the ones that God foreknew. The rest of the world were mostly infidels. The Jews were the ones who had the message of Salvation. They were at the time the only elect. Chosen to be a people of God. This election was to Salvation although it didn't guarantee it. It didn't mean they were the only ones saved either, because the Ninevehites believe Jonah and God sent Jonah to them for this purpose.
We also have to remember Paul was a citizen of Rome making him a Roman himself even though he was a Jew. It was Rome Paul preached in the synagogue's there.

These verses show who the foreknown are;
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Calvinist like to think of themselves being foreknown as spoken of in ;

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

But over look the words "IN HIM" We are chosen in Him on the cross because he died for the whole world. This election like the first one doesn't guarantee Salvation. It does mean who so ever believes in Him will be saved. His atonement is only applied to those who voluntarily accept Him as Savior and place there trust in Him. Submitting there will to His;
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Our righteousness is not acceptable only the righteousness of God can save us. Thus it isn't a salvation by the works of men but of God.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
This does not releave us of responsibility nor is the grace of God with out condition. We must still of our selves be willing to submit.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

We were all ungodly once even the vessles of wrath.
MB

 

[MB]

Hi Andy;

A good teacher is one who agrees with me! A bad teacher is one who doesn't agree with me!

A good teacher is one who teaches what agree's with scripture.
MB

 

[Rippon]

All Christians should treasure that the fact that they have been foreknown by God . Calvinists do not insist that they only are the elect of God . ( We just have a more biblical approach to a number of scriptural teachings All true believers or sheep , have been foreknown as in contrast to the goats who the Lord has never known .
MB , you said that we were all ungodly once , even the vessels of wrath . That is a real error . The vessels of wrath will remain ungodly -- they are the reprobate . The objects of wrath are prepared for destruction according to Romans 9:22 and related passages .
Bottom line -- The Lord knows those who are His own . ( 2 Timothy 2:19 ) . He has known and loved them eternally . The Lord doesn't know the whole wide world . I was reading in 1 Kings today . It says in 10:24 that : The whole world sought audience with Solomon to hear the wisdom God had put in his heart . ( NIV) The "whole world " . Is that every person , or many folks ? Yes , the latter .

 

[Andy T.]

Hi Andy;

A good teacher is one who teaches what agree's with scripture.
MB

First, I hope you know I was being sarcastic. Second, I hope you also know that I agree with the above statement.

This circular argumentation really gets us nowhere, along with argumentation against unprovable assertions based on the testimonies of all Christians past, present and future.

 

[MB]

Hi Rippon;

All Christians should treasure that the fact that they have been foreknown by God . Calvinists do not insist that they only are the elect of God . ( We just have a more biblical approach to a number of scriptural teachings All true believers or sheep , have been foreknown as in contrast to the goats who the Lord has never known .

So you say with out scripture which means absolutely nothing.

MB , you said that we were all ungodly once , even the vessels of wrath . That is a real error .

You're not saying you were never ungodly are you?
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

The vessels of wrath will remain ungodly -- they are the reprobate . The objects of wrath are prepared for destruction according to Romans 9:22 and related passages .

Interesting that scripture never says this at all not even Rom. 9:22

Bottom line -- The Lord knows those who are His own . ( 2 Timothy 2:19 ) . He has known and loved them eternally .

I disagree; He doesn't know us before He knows us and 2nd tim 2:19 doesn't claim that he does. Those he foreknows are Jews because they had Salvation before the Gentiles. We are children of God by faith with out faith we are not His. It is you who is in error.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The Lord doesn't know the whole wide world . I was reading in 1 Kings today . It says in 10:24 that : The whole world sought audience with Solomon to hear the wisdom God had put in his heart . ( NIV) The "whole world " . Is that every person , or many folks ? Yes , the latter .

You throw out a bunch of verses and make claims that aren't in those verses at all.

You don't know who was the whole world at the time. You weren't there.

There is not one passage that says men are His before Salvation.
The Bible says;
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

God came to save the ungodly.
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

I'd really like proof that you were His before you were.
MB

 

[Allan]

The Lord doesn't know the whole wide world . I was reading in 1 Kings today . It says in 10:24 that : The whole world sought audience with Solomon to hear the wisdom God had put in his heart . ( NIV) The "whole world " . Is that every person , or many folks ? Yes , the latter .

Actaully it is geographically representive of the sinful and wicked people groups outside of the specific God called Jewish people.

So technically it is geographical but it does reference those people groups IN that geographic location.

BTW - the Lord does KNOW the whole world for even the scriptures state all men were created or knit together in the wombs of their mothers by His hands - therefore He knows every man intimately but not relationally.

What you mean to say is that God doesn't love anyone relationally but the elect.

 

[MB]

First, I hope you know I was being sarcastic. Second, I hope you also know that I agree with the above statement.

This circular argumentation really gets us nowhere, along with argumentation against unprovable assertions based on the testimonies of all Christians past, present and future.

Circular?
My faith isn't base on the testimonies of others but on Jesus Christ and His word. Does that go against scripture?
MB