When Abel was killed was he in Abraham bosom/side (paradise) by himself?

[Happy]

Context is your friend. Read verse 12.

And no man hath ascended into heavens - No living man has ascended into the heavens, therefore, no living man is qualified to speak of heavenly things.

Verse 12 is a question, not a "therefore".
Verse 13 states no man has ascended up to heaven, BUT he that came down from heaven....

So to the point, WHO, that is called a man, does Scripture teach, came down from Heaven?

John 6 [38] For I came down from heaven,

[12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Of course living men are qualified to speak of heavenly things!

Gods angels are heavenly things.
Gods throne is a heavenly thing.

 

[TCassidy]

Of course living men are qualified to speak of heavenly things!

Not according to the bible. No living person is qualified to speak, first hand, of heavenly things since no living person his ascended to heaven to discover those heavenly things. Only Jesus Christ, who came down from heaven.

The passage couldn't be more clear.

The idea that a living person is getting direct communication from heaven is the stuff cults are made of.

 

[Jope]

The term Jesus uses is "son of man".

John 3:12-13 NET
If I have told you people about earthly things and you don’t believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven – the Son of Man.
​

This term was not a foreign term in the OT scriptures. Ezekiel is called it numerous times. Usually, it's prophets who have heavenly visions who are called it. Christ was called the son of man too. Numerous saints before Christ were called "son of man" because they were candidates for the position of redeemer, as e.g. Moses (Numbers 14:12), Noah (Gen. 5:29), etc., just as numerous saints were called sons of God (cf Gen 6:1-6). There were even some saints who were called "gods" (John 10:33-36; Psalm 82; etc.). Christ is the only legitimate candidate for the son of God and "son of man" and redeemer, though. And He is the legitimatizer of all the previous sons of God (as eg. Gen. 6; etc.), and "son of man" title holders.

 

[Happy]

Not according to the bible. No living person is qualified to speak, first hand, of heavenly things since no living person his ascended to heaven to discover those heavenly things. Only Jesus Christ, who came down from heaven.

The passage couldn't be more clear.

The idea that a living person is getting direct communication from heaven is the stuff cults are made of.

Absurd Nonsense!

Direct communication FROM God in Heaven is precisely HOW one comes to UNDERSTAND Gods understanding of scripture. Obviously so many believe as you are teaching, and use their pea brains to try and figure out the meaning of scriptures, and thus we have umpteen philosophers yapping nonsense.

 

[TCassidy]

Absurd Nonsense!

Direct communication FROM God in Heaven is precisely HOW one comes to UNDERSTAND Gods understanding of scripture. Obviously so many believe as you are teaching, and use their pea brains to try and figure out the meaning of scriptures, and thus we have umpteen philosophers yapping nonsense.

If you are hearing voices which you think are coming directly from God may I suggest you seek psychiatric help at the earliest possible opportunity.

 

[Happy]

The term Jesus uses is "son of man".

John 3:12-13 NET
If I have told you people about earthly things and you don’t believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven – the Son of Man.
​

This term was not a foreign term in the OT scriptures. Ezekiel is called it numerous times. Usually, it's prophets who have heavenly visions who are called it. Christ was called the son of man too. Numerous saints before Christ were called "son of man" because they were candidates for the position of redeemer, as e.g. Moses (Numbers 14:12), Noah (Gen. 5:29), etc., just as numerous saints were called sons of God (cf Gen 6:1-6). There were even some saints who were called "gods" (John 10:33-36; Psalm 82; etc.). Christ is the only legitimate candidate for the son of God and "son of man" and redeemer, though. And He is the legitimatizer of all the previous sons of God (as eg. Gen. 6; etc.), and "son of man" title holders.

God declared, that God would be a father to Him, and He would be to God a Son.

Heb.1

1. [5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Scripture also says the same of a man of the earth, that He will be a father in application to faithful men.

2 Cor 6
[18] And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.


Jesus is the Son man, same as I am the son of man, being the same man; Abraham.
Jesus took upon himself the seed of Abraham, so did I.
That puts Jesus as well as myself as entitled to Abraham's land inheritance.
(cool eh? Land is reserved for Christ's Kingdom on earth)

Heb.2

1. [16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Gal 3

[7] Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham

[29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Luke 19

1. [9] And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

 

[Jope]

That puts Jesus as well as myself as entitled to Abraham's land inheritance.
(cool eh? Land is reserved for Christ's Kingdom on earth)

1 Peter 1:3-4; Galatians 4:24-26; Philippians 3:20; etc. all say that Christians in this dispensation have a heavenly inheritance. God promised to Abraham that his seed would be like the sand on earth AND also like the stars in heaven. Now read Ephesians 2:6-7; 1:9-10. Cool eh? There are heavenly thrones reserved for us (Colossians 1:16; Rev. 3:21).

 

[Jope]

God declared, that God would be a father to Him, and He would be to God a Son.

Heb.1

1. [5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Scripture also says the same of a man of the earth, that He will be a father in application to faithful men.

2 Cor 6
[18] And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.


Jesus is the Son man, same as I am the son of man, being the same man; Abraham.
Jesus took upon himself the seed of Abraham, so did I.

...A bit odd. Why are you preaching my sermon to me?

 

[Happy]

If you are hearing voices which you think are coming directly from God may I suggest you seek psychiatric help at the earliest possible opportunity.

Thoughtful of you to suggest a worldly remedy because you do not agree with Scriptural teaching.
However I have already experienced what Scripture teaches and will stick with that.

Prov 16
[22] Understanding is a wellspring of life unto him that hath it: but the instruction of fools is folly.

1Chr.22
[12] Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding

Exod.31
[3] And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge,

1Kgs.4
[29] And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding

Matt.16

1. [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

 

[Happy]

...A bit odd. Why are you preaching my sermon to me?

Christ is the only legitimate candidate for the son of God and "son of man" and redeemer, though.

Your sermon to you? I was showing my disagreement with your statement. ^^

According to Scripture;

Men of the earth also can;
by promise be "son of man"
and
by adoption be "son of God".

 

[Happy]

1 Peter 1:3-4; Galatians 4:24-26; Philippians 3:20; etc. all say that Christians in this dispensation have a heavenly inheritance. God promised to Abraham that his seed would be like the sand on earth AND also like the stars in heaven. Now read Ephesians 2:6-7; 1:9-10. Cool eh? There are heavenly thrones reserved for us (Colossians 1:16; Rev. 3:21).

Heaven was created as Gods estate, it is His Everlasting Throne, which is the Place of Power, from which He rules.

Earth was created as mankind's estate, it also has an everlasting Throne, which is the Place of Power from which He rules.

Hell was created as the estate of those who reject God.

God, mankind, hosts (heavenly and fallen angels) have all had access and residency in each place (heaven, earth & hell)

Thus all places have had corruption introduced, and shall be renewed and changed and restored for their initial intended purpose.

Man occupying "heaven", is in regard to the "members" (parts) OF a man that have "RESTORED" life from God.

Bodies (one part ) of man come from the earth.
Living souls of man come from God, become corrupt, (some) have become restored, and currently (IF SAVED) and their body dead in the ground; their living soul temporary is in heaven with God, WAITING for their restored body.
Spirits of man, that has been born again, (whose body is dead in the ground) is also in heaven, with God, waiting for their body to be restored.

Earth was created FOR mankind, that has not changed. What changed was mankind, who rejected God as their king. As that becomes restored, all men WHO accept God as their king, in faithfulness to Him alone, shall occupy the earth forever, which (the earth) shall become restored to being good, as it and heaven was, when God created it.

Faithful mankinds inheritance is land (earth).
Faithful mankinds access shall be to the restored earth, Christ's Kingdom AND Gods Throne, ie heaven.

1 Sam 8

[7] And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.



Matt.5

1. [34] But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

Rev.21

1. [1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more seas.

Matt.6

1. [10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Isa 9

[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John.18

1. [36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Jesus' kingdom IS Heaven and Earth. It simply has not been yet manifested for mankind to SEE.

Jesus HAD to come in the likeness as a man.
Jesus HAD to be revealed on earth coming forth from a woman, As earthly men are.
Jesus FULFILLED the LAW of nature, as men of the earth are NATURALLY born of a woman.
Jesus FULFILLED the LAW of mankind, being a son of an earthly woman.
Jesus FULFILLED the LAW of the Jews, being born from the womb of a Jewish woman.
.........a Jewish Law, that ONLY a Jew can lawfully occupy king David's throne on earth.

Jesus HAD to be in the genealogy line of Abraham, to be a 'son of David", and heir to his throne.
Jesus HAD to be in the genealogy line of Abraham, to be an rightful inheritor of Abraham's promised land on earth.

Most people only think about Jesus fulfilling laws, (of his bodily death), and do not take notice, Jesus fulfilled hundreds of laws, in preparation of His return to CLAIM His "restored" inheritance and THRONE and KINGDOM.

Faithful mans inheritance is land (and land IS earth) , AND access to sit in Gods throne, which IS access to Heaven.

 

[TCassidy]

Thoughtful of you to suggest a worldly remedy because you do not agree with Scriptural teaching.

Auditory hallucinations are a sure symptom of mental illness. Please, seek professional help.

 

[Jope]

Heaven was created as Gods estate, it is His Everlasting Throne, which is the Place of Power, from which He rules.

Earth was created as mankind's estate, it also has an everlasting Throne, which is the Place of Power from which He rules.

Hell was created as the estate of those who reject God.

God, mankind, hosts (heavenly and fallen angels) have all had access and residency in each place (heaven, earth & hell)

Thus all places have had corruption introduced, and shall be renewed and changed and restored for their initial intended purpose.

Man occupying "heaven", is in regard to the "members" (parts) OF a man that have "RESTORED" life from God.

Bodies (one part ) of man come from the earth.
Living souls of man come from God, become corrupt, (some) have become restored, and currently (IF SAVED) and their body dead in the ground; their living soul temporary is in heaven with God, WAITING for their restored body.
Spirits of man, that has been born again, (whose body is dead in the ground) is also in heaven, with God, waiting for their body to be restored.

Earth was created FOR mankind, that has not changed. What changed was mankind, who rejected God as their king. As that becomes restored, all men WHO accept God as their king, in faithfulness to Him alone, shall occupy the earth forever, which (the earth) shall become restored to being good, as it and heaven was, when God created it.

Faithful mankinds inheritance is land (earth).
Faithful mankinds access shall be to the restored earth, Christ's Kingdom AND Gods Throne, ie heaven.

1 Sam 8

[7] And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.



Matt.5

1. [34] But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

Rev.21

1. [1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more seas.

Matt.6

1. [10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Isa 9

[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John.18

1. [36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Jesus' kingdom IS Heaven and Earth. It simply has not been yet manifested for mankind to SEE.

Jesus HAD to come in the likeness as a man.
Jesus HAD to be revealed on earth coming forth from a woman, As earthly men are.
Jesus FULFILLED the LAW of nature, as men of the earth are NATURALLY born of a woman.
Jesus FULFILLED the LAW of mankind, being a son of an earthly woman.
Jesus FULFILLED the LAW of the Jews, being born from the womb of a Jewish woman.
.........a Jewish Law, that ONLY a Jew can lawfully occupy king David's throne on earth.

Jesus HAD to be in the genealogy line of Abraham, to be a 'son of David", and heir to his throne.
Jesus HAD to be in the genealogy line of Abraham, to be an rightful inheritor of Abraham's promised land on earth.

Most people only think about Jesus fulfilling laws, (of his bodily death), and do not take notice, Jesus fulfilled hundreds of laws, in preparation of His return to CLAIM His "restored" inheritance and THRONE and KINGDOM.

Faithful mans inheritance is land (and land IS earth) , AND access to sit in Gods throne, which IS access to Heaven.

Soo ignorance is bliss eh Happy

 

[Happy]

Soo ignorance is bliss eh Happy

That would be your opinion, not mine, thus you did not read me saying any such thing.

 

[Happy]

Auditory hallucinations are a sure symptom of mental illness. Please, seek professional help.

If I had been speaking of hallucinations, your mental illness comment might have be appropriate.

However I was speaking of a Scriptural truth, of a gift from God who gives an individual "HIS" knowledge, wisdom and understanding.

Your rejection of such, does not affect me whatsoever.

 

[Van]

Lets back up and go over this topic biblically.
1) Did Ablel go the Abraham's bosom or the place in Hades for torment? Based on Hebrews 11:4 he apparently was taken to Abraham's bosom (even if that place of comfort had a different name.)
2) Was this place of comfort Paradise or heaven? No. John 3:13 precludes any human ascending to heaven. And "paradise" is just another name for the third heaven, the abode of God. 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 uses both words interchangeably.

 

[JonShaff]

This will probably sound absurd, but...

I believe that Christ cleansed the Heavenly Tabernacle (because of Lucifer) with His own Blood.

Hebrews 9
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

I believe His Blood will cause the New Man to be a reality in Glorification. His Blood is also the cause for the New Earth and New Heaven.

I believe the physical Tabernacle with Moses and Aaron was a picture of what Christ would do in the Heavenlies (including their cleansing ceremony).

Nobody defiled God, but His dwelling place and His footstool did get defiled.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

 

[Tim71]

I believe that Christ cleansed the Heavenly Tabernacle (because of Lucifer) with His own Blood.

Hebrews 9

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

you

Do you believe when Jesus died on the cross, that he went to Abrahams Bosom/Paradise and removed all the old testament saints and took them with Him to heaven? The reason why I ask this question is I've heard people mention that the blood of bulls and goats couldn't get them into heaven. They needed the blood of Jesus to get them to heaven. I don't know how true all this is. Just wanted to hear other opinions on the subject

 

[Jope]

2) Was this place of comfort Paradise or heaven? No. John 3:13 precludes any human ascending to heaven. And "paradise" is just another name for the third heaven, the abode of God. 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 uses both words interchangeably.

Christ said that He would meet that thief on the cross in paradise that very day.

"And Jesus said to him, 'I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise'" (Luke 23:43, NET).​

We know from Psalm 16 and Acts 2, that Christ was going to Sheol.

"You will not abandon me to Sheol; you will not allow your faithful follower to see the Pit" (NET).​

Peter quotes Psalm 16:10 as referring to Christ's descent into Sheol. We know from Peter's words in Acts 2, that Sheol is the equivalent of the Greek place Hades.

"But God raised [Jesus] up, having released him from the pains of death, because it was not possible for him to be held in its power. For David says about him, ‘I saw the Lord always in front of me, for he is at my right hand so that I will not be shaken. Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue rejoiced; my body also will live in hope, because you will not leave my soul in Hades, nor permit your Holy One to experience decay" (Acts 2:24-27, NET).
​

Therefore, Paradise was in Hades or Sheol. Christ descended to Hades or Sheol and told the thief that He would meet him that very day in Hades or Sheol, in Paradise. Paradise must therefore have been in Hades or Sheol. But we know from 2 Corinthians 12 that Paradise is now in a different place, the third heaven.

 

[Happy]

Lets back up and go over this topic biblically.
1) Did Ablel go the Abraham's bosom or the place in Hades for torment? Based on Hebrews 11:4 he apparently was taken to Abraham's bosom (even if that place of comfort had a different name.)
2) Was this place of comfort Paradise or heaven? No. John 3:13 precludes any human ascending to heaven. And "paradise" is just another name for the third heaven, the abode of God. 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 uses both words interchangeably.

Paradise IS where the Tree of Life IS.
Where the Tree of Life IS, is where Paradise IS.

God IS Life. God creates Vessels. God imparts Life (from Him) into His created Vessels.

Vessels and "LIFE" in the vessels, THAT become corrupt DO NOT have access to the Tree of Life, situated in Paradise.

Paradise is the place, where HOLY things are.
The Tree of Life, IS Gods presence, sustaining LIFE, in the Holy things.

Paradise WAS IN the Garden of Eden, WHERE the Tree of Life WAS.
A GOOD (ie not corrupt), man (bodily vessel) was created and PUT in the Garden.
The Tree of Life was there, to sustain the man. (ie Gods presence, Word, Direction).
The man fell into disobedience, (ie sin against God).
The man became "not good", (ie corrupt).
The man was removed from the Garden, and from having access to the Tree of Life.
Void of access TO partake of the Tree of Life, man became subject to physical death.

For a man WHO became reconciled back unto God...
His physical body, still had to pay the penalty of Death, thus it dies.
However his soul, IF saved (reconciled), became separated FROM souls that were not reconciled (ie saved).

Saved and unsaved souls, departed from their dead bodies, ALL went to hell. In hell their "division" (between saved and unsaved ) was maintained, by the division of a great gulf, where none could cross over.

On the one side of the saved souls, was Abraham, father of the saved (via promise). Their souls were maintained in life, via the Tree of Life, which was provided for the restored souls. Thus from the Garden, where what WAS created good was an occupant, Adam, who went from good to corruption..AND..that which is reconciled and restored to good (ie a saved soul), it is an occupant of Paradise, and is sustained, by the Tree of Life.

After Jesus' body was killed. His body went to the tomb of burial. His soul went to hell. His soul three days later, returned to His body, and His body resumed living ( as do all bodies, whose soul departs, and then is reimparted into the body).

Since Jesus is first in all things, once His soul entered and departed Hell; all saved souls were then able to depart hell, and go to heaven. Thus NOW, Paradise is in Heaven, because that is where the Tree of Life is, that sustains life in a holy thing. Restored (ie saved) souls are holy, and WHEN departed from their dying physical body, all GO NOW directly to heaven, which is the current location of the Tree of Life.

In the future, the Tree of Life will be located in Jesus' earthly Kingdom, and as it was since the beginning, that which IS Holy, will be sustained in Life, by the Tree of Life.

Rev.2

1. [7] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

A man WHO overcomes is a man WHO is forgiven, saved, born again and is in waiting for his bodily change and WHO will be sustained in life BY having access TO the tree of life, as promised to be available to him that has overcome.