When did Christ embrace Sonship?

[JohnDBaptiste]

2 Peter 1:20–21 (NASB95)
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

All scripture was revealed in this prophetic manner therefore this pertains to all scripture.

John 16:13 (NASB95)
13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Now notice:

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (NASB95)
21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

1 John 4:1 (NASB95)
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Not for any inadequacy of the Holy Spirit but that of human perception / understanding / gullibility.

So how do we test the spirits?

Acts 17:11 (NASB95)
11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

 

[a SATS prof]

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Hello Jon

Hi, prof. I gathered that much, but that didn't relieve any ambiguity. I'm sorry. Have you researched Paul's meaning of morphe when he ascribes that term first to show Christ is God then to show Christ is man in Phil 2? I take that to mean "nature" which includes both substance and qualities (see context) or powers including the ability to act.When you speak of the distinction between divine/human are you referring to dichotomy of substance (Spirit/body) ?By dichotomy, I take it that you mean a division into two unlike parts. I affirm that to be a proper description of Christ. The deity is unlike the humanity. Or do you think it speaks of two distinct inner "qualities" blended into one, then wrapped in a body ?No, I don't think that. And if it's the second, define quality or replace it with a word that fits better in your understanding. And if you replace "quality" with another word, try not to use a word which can have more than one meaning. And if you do use a word which can have more than one meaning, define it in terms which leave nothing to be interpreted.Or if it's neither of the two options I've presented,
get down to the meat snd bones of your view. James I think I've already specifically defined my Christology here. But I'll try again: AS one read in historical theology would know, my views are Antiochian type (see: Theodoret & Nestorius vs Cyril) Word Man (see context), Christologist holding that at the Incarnation, true and complete humanity including will & intellect was added to the Person -not mixed with the divine nature. The deity remains God retaining ALL the qualities of God as omniscience, eternality,sovereignty, and omnipresence) and is distinct from and unmixed with the humanity which remains limited in all those attributes. While all experiences and acts of Christ are true of the Person , they are the acts and experiences of the natures. Each nature-- which includes essence and attributes, and the faculties of personality-- experiences & does what is proper to it. God was not born and man did not create. MK 13:32 refers only to the human nature and Col 1:17 only to the divine nature. But both refer to Christ. I think this all is based on sound deductions drawn from the Scriptures.The Person of Christ is the combination of the two distinct natures.

 

[evangelist6589]

Thanks for a good laugh. The guy has written a book on the subject, ergo he is right? Surely you don't mean this!!

Go chase a rabbit.

 

[JonC]

Go chase a rabbit.

Actually, Evan, he was right to call you out on that one. Think of it this way, you read Ray Comfort’s books and take what he says to heart. I have more formal education, and a greater theological background, than does Ray Comfort. So you should listen to me instead. Oh….but JoJ is better qualified than me, so perhaps you should disciple at his feet instead of insulting him. If it’s just writing books that matter, don’t forget that Brian McLaren is also an author.

I mean no disrespect, but JoJ was right to point that out. A simple “thanks” or “oops” would have been the appropriate response.

 

[evangelist6589]

Actually, Evan, he was right to call you out on that one. Think of it this way, you read Ray Comfort’s books and take what he says to heart. I have more formal education, and a greater theological background, than does Ray Comfort. So you should listen to me instead. Oh….but JoJ is better qualified than me, so perhaps you should disciple at his feet instead of insulting him. If it’s just writing books that matter, don’t forget that Brian McLaren is also an author.

I mean no disrespect, but JoJ was right to point that out. A simple “thanks” or “oops” would have been the appropriate response.

Watch the ego. You are nowhere near Ray Comfort.

 

[JonC]

Watch the ego. You are nowhere near Ray Comfort.

You missed the point, brother.And not by a small amount. Perhaps you should review that post....read it at what you think would be a very slow pace and then read it again even slower. And don't skip words. Then respond.

I was not saying that you should listen to me above anyone else (you misunderstood....I was in reality saying the opposite). I am encouraging you to prayerfully study Scripture and consider that God works within the Body of Christ for his purposes. I am not claiming to be better than Ray Comfort, but I am also not viewing his views as superior to my own. And I will add, while God has used Comfort greatly in his Kingdom, you are also just as valuable and useful to God in the Kingdom work. You and I are joint heirs in Christ (along side people like Ray Comfort). We are brothers and need to treat each other as brothers. We are not superior to each other, but we can learn from each other.

 

[evangelist6589]

You missed the point, brother. And not by a small amount. Perhaps you should review that post....read it at what you think would be a very slow pace and then read it again even slower. And don't skip words. Then respond.

Go chase a rabbit.

 

[JonC]

Go chase a rabbit.

What are you talking about????? Are you drinking? I once had a friend who would drink too much (not really get wasted, but drink too much) and call people. He'd say stupid stuff too. But reexamine the post....you completely missed my point. Your comments are so far in left field, brother....you do not make sense.

I am not saying you should listen to me because I'm a seminary graduate. I'm not saying you should listen to JoJ because he could cuss you out in Greek (if he went around cussing out people in Greek). But you can't say that others have no valid interpretations because they haven't written a book on a topic, not without looking foolish anyway. You put far too much faith in your books, brother. I cannot help but wonder if this is not idolatry because it sure seems that way from where I'm sitting.

 

[John of Japan]

Go chase a rabbit.

Yeah, pretty much your standard answer when you can't deal with your own faux pax.

 

[InTheLight]

What are you talking about????? Are you drinking?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Thanks for this, Percho. These are deep waters and I think I need to study a little more before shooting my mouth off any further.
I will only say, that Jesus Christ's 'Goings forth are from old, from everlasting' (Micah 5:2b), and yet He is 'The same yesterday, today and forever' (Heb. 13:8).

Well, I've studied a little more, and I'm still, inclined to think that Christ is eternally begotten of the Father.

Col. 1:17. 'And He is before all things.....' Who is before all things? 'The Son of His love' (v.13) is the nearest referent. 'He is the image of the invisible God' (v.15). That is surely what Sonship means- to be in the image of one's father. Gen. 5:3. 'And Adam .......begot a son in his own likeness and after his image, and named him Seth.'

So the Son is the image of the invisible God, and is before all things. He is all these things as Son.

 

[evangelist6589]

What are you talking about????? Are you drinking? I once had a friend who would drink too much (not really get wasted, but drink too much) and call people. He'd say stupid stuff too. But reexamine the post....you completely missed my point. Your comments are so far in left field, brother....you do not make sense.

I am not saying you should listen to me because I'm a seminary graduate. I'm not saying you should listen to JoJ because he could cuss you out in Greek (if he went around cussing out people in Greek). But you can't say that others have no valid interpretations because they haven't written a book on a topic, not without looking foolish anyway. You put far too much faith in your books, brother. I cannot help but wonder if this is not idolatry because it sure seems that way from where I'm sitting.

I put my faith in the scripture and books are written by teachers that help me understand them better.

 

[agedman]

I put my faith in the scripture and books are written by teachers that help me understand them better.

Perhaps,

But not always do I see you using wisdom from even published authors and scholars of the BB.

 

[heisrisen]

I agree the bible is the final authority! Nobody else.

 

[a SATS prof]

I agree the bible is the final authority! Nobody else.

---

The difficulty is separating " the Bible" from our interpretation of it.

 

[MB]

When did Christ embrace the sonship?

I've been reading and studying the same and in my opinion Christ has always been The Son. He was the Son before creation. He has always been the Son He has no beginning or end and has never changed
MB

 

[a SATS prof]

Well, I've studied a little more, and I'm still, inclined to think that Christ is eternally begotten of the Father.

Col. 1:17. 'And He is before all things.....' Who is before all things? 'The Son of His love' (v.13) is the nearest referent. 'He is the image of the invisible God' (v.15). That is surely what Sonship means- to be in the image of one's father. Gen. 5:3. 'And Adam .......begot a son in his own likeness and after his image, and named him Seth.'

So the Son is the image of the invisible God, and is before all things. He is all these things as Son.

---

Martin

Do you feel those texts are evidence that God the Son in eternity derives His deity or nature or personhood from the Father (the view of Shedd, Dahms,Berkof, Wiley etc)?

I too think the Son is eternally Son, but not eternally begotten as in derived from the Father..

 

[evangelist6589]

Perhaps,

But not always do I see you using wisdom from even published authors and scholars of the BB.

No because they are not always correct. For example many here do not agree with my evangelism methods which is usually law to the proud and grace for the humble. Why listen to them over scripture when in most cases this biblical principle is the pattern that we see in scripture?

 

[JonC]

No because they are not always correct. For example many here do not agree with my evangelism methods which is usually law to the proud and grace for the humble. Why listen to then over scripture when in most cases this biblical principle is the pattern that we see in scripture.

IMHO, what you need to start doing, brother, is defend those ideas via Scripture and not through the writings of others. Introduce scholarly commentary (by experts on a narrow subject) for specific points only when warranted (and no, Ray Comfort is not one of these....neither am I). When you use books to help understand something, please be very careful not to just adopt whatever view is given (once someone tells you that ink blot is a bat, you will always see a bat in the blot). But learn and interact with the topic and with Scripture (don't just memorize). We have had many discussions where you state something that you cannot explain. The BB is a very good place to develop arguments and vet your theology. But be objective and open. People are going to disagree with you. People are going to disagree with some of your authors. But please just start acting as if your conduct here mattered. You do realize that there is no difference between insulting a brother in Christ and insulting Christ, don't you?

And above all, stop insulting people. No one cares what you have to say if you cannot communicate (listen,affirm, understand, reply, clarify, etc) without insulting people. This applies here, in your church, in your community, or on the street trying to share the gospel message.

 

[evangelist6589]

IMHO, what you need to start doing, brother, is defend those ideas via Scripture and not through the writings of others. Introduce scholarly commentary (by experts on a narrow subject) for specific points only when warranted (and no, Ray Comfort is not one of these....neither am I). When you use books to help understand something, please be very careful not to just adopt whatever view is given (once someone tells you that ink blot is a bat, you will always see a bat in the blot). But learn and interact with the topic and with Scripture (don't just memorize). We have had many discussions where you state something that you cannot explain. The BB is a very good place to develop arguments and vet your theology. But be objective and open. People are going to disagree with you. People are going to disagree with some of your authors. But please just start acting as if your conduct here mattered. You do realize that there is no difference between insulting a brother in Christ and insulting Christ, don't you?

And above all, stop insulting people. No one cares what you have to say if you cannot communicate (listen,affirm, understand, reply, clarify, etc) without insulting people. This applies here, in your church, in your community, or on the street trying to share the gospel message.

How am I insulting people? The rabbits are basically telling them to buzz off. But yes perhaps I can learn to better defend my views.