When Did God Choose His People?

[kyredneck]

Oh, I'm all about eternal security

So you say now, your past posts don't support that statement. It seems to me that you think we're all on the verge of going to hell.

 

[KenH]

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, and giveth seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isa 55

You're quoting the Bible. Excellent.

I think I will quote some more of God's Word, too.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Charlie24]

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, and giveth seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isa 55

Aww man, you guys are messing with me. I'm new here, LOL, let's not play Scripture tag.

 

[kyredneck]

I'm new here

That's getting old, fast.

 

[DaveXR650]

I've studied Calvinism for a long time now, I've never been able to get past the "T."

The problem with the strict Calvinistic view of the T is that they believe you do not have the ability to respond at all to the gospel - not even to say on you own, "I am lost and undone and need to be saved". Total depravity as meaning that we are sinful and will keep sinning regardless of efforts to improve or promises to do so and the idea that there is corruption in every aspect of everything we do and think I would hope is a universal belief among orthodox Christians.

Where it gets sticky is can we even respond. Here again, many Calvinists believe that you should be able to, and your corrupt "free will" is why you don't. And many Calvinists believe that the Holy Spirit is needed to work directly on you in an awakening or enlightening manner but other, maybe most Calvinists believe you are regenerated first and then and only then do you believe and that this is necessary because we are totally depraved.

 

[kyredneck]

let's not play Scripture tag.

So, what else is there to guide us?

 

[Charlie24]

So you say now, your past posts don't support that statement. It seems to me that you think we're all on the verge of going to hell.

I'm new here, you don't know how much I treasure the eternal security the Lord has given us.

But my friend, responsibility comes with that security, you must keep the faith.

That's what we fundamentalists call "conditional salvation."

 

[kyredneck]

the strict Calvinistic view of the T

...throw it out the window and we all become waffling mugwumps...

 

[Charlie24]

So, what else is there to guide us?

That's a very good point, but there's this thing called "communication," it only works when you explain yourself.

 

[KenH]

they always put a high importance on living the Christian life

There is certainly no merit to good works, no patting oneself on the back, as the good works were already ordained by God and are His work( Ephesians 2:10, Philippians 2:13 ), but I certainly don't think that I can sin with impunity.

Hebrews 12:5-11 Ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children,

My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord,
Nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth,
And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

 

[Charlie24]

The problem with the strict Calvinistic view of the T is that they believe you do not have the ability to respond at all to the gospel - not even to say on you own, "I am lost and undone and need to be saved". Total depravity as meaning that we are sinful and will keep sinning regardless of efforts to improve or promises to do so and the idea that there is corruption in every aspect of everything we do and think I would hope is a universal belief among orthodox Christians.

Where it gets sticky is can we even respond. Here again, many Calvinists believe that you should be able to, and your corrupt "free will" is why you don't. And many Calvinists believe that the Holy Spirit is needed to work directly on you in an awakening or enlightening manner but other, maybe most Calvinists believe you are regenerated first and then and only then do you believe and that this is necessary because we are totally depraved.

We don't know what these particular Calvinists believe, none of them seem to have the ability to talk.

 

[KenH]

That's what we fundamentalists call "conditional salvation."

Salvation is not conditional. It is sure and certain. Why? Because salvation is 100% by the power of God, and 0% by the power of man.

Jude 1:24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[Charlie24]

Salvation is not conditional. It is sure and certain. Why? Because salvation is 100% by the power of God, and 0% by the power of man.

Jude 1:24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Be honest with me and yourself, Ken, is this a condition for salvation?

Rom. 10:9-10

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

 

[KenH]

We don't know what these particular Calvinists believe, none of them seem to have the ability to talk.

Here you go, lots of written words for you to read, by Bill Parker, about salvation:

WHAT IS THE SIMPLE GOSPEL

Many people today talk about the word gospel, but few ever define specifically what they mean by the gospel. For example, most will agree that all who are saved believe the gospel, but most do not agree on what the gospel is. It is easy to say that the gospel is simply "Christ," or "Christ, crucified." It is easy to say that the gospel is merely the "death, burial, and resurrection of Christ." A preacher in a letter to me once defined the gospel as "the word of God's promise in Jesus who is the Christ." This was, as he stated, the gospel in its simplest form. The problem with all this is that it really does not tell anyone specifically what the gospel is and what it is not. Many who disagree on such vital issues as who God is, who Christ is, the sinfulness of man, and the ground of salvation, can and do agree with the statements above. Also, when we consider the words of God in Galatians 1:8 -- "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed," does this not prove to us that we need a more specific definition? Of course it does.

Thank God that He has not left us to our own thoughts and imaginations on this vital issue. He has given us His definition of the Gospel. It is stated throughout the Bible in many ways and in many forms, but God gives us the most concise definition by the Apostle Paul in Romans 1:1-17 and Romans 3:21-26. The Gospel is THE GOOD NEWS OF GOD'S ETERNAL SALVATION AND FINAL GLORY IN HEAVEN CONDITIONED ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, BASED ON HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ALONE. The Gospel, in light of the sinfulness of man (Romans 1:18-Romans 3:21), and the utter impossibility of any sinner being saved based on that sinner's best efforts at obedience, reveals how a holy and just God can save sinners in mercy, love, and grace, and still remain holy and just. The Gospel reveals that all this is possible based on the merits of a God-sent Substitute, the Lord Jesus Christ, who would become incarnate, obey the law perfectly, and satisfy justice by His death on the cross in order to establish a righteousness whereby God could be both a just God and a Savior (Isaiah 45:21-22).

The Gospel excludes all the works of man and any work done by or in man as to the ground of this great salvation. It calls on sinners to believe in and trust Christ for all righteousness and life. It calls on sinners to repent of ever thinking that salvation or any part of it could have been conditioned on the sinner. It leaves sinners with no hope of salvation but that which is found in the Person and accomplished work of Christ. Therefore, in order to preach the Gospel, we must preach the sinfulness of man in light of the holiness and justice of God, the Person of Christ as Godman/Mediator, and the righteousness of Christ freely imputed and revealed by God-given faith for salvation. This is the heart of the Gospel (2 Corinthians 5:21). Every other subject in the Bible must be preached in this light if it is to be distinguished from the dead works and idolatry of man-made religion.

This Gospel identifies and distinguishes the true and living God from all idols. This Gospel identifies and distinguishes the true Christ from all counterfeits. This Gospel identifies and distinguishes the Holy Spirit from evil spirits. This Gospel identifies and distinguishes the only ground of salvation from all false refuges.

 

[DaveXR650]

There is certainly no merit to good works, no patting oneself on the back, as the good works were already ordained by God and are His work( Ephesians 2:10, Philippians 2:13 ), but I certainly don't think that I can sin with impunity.

Hebrews 12:5-11 Ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children,

My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord,
Nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth,
And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

I agree with you on that. But I am just saying that the Puritan writers went further. Any known sin, persisted in, and not repented of would result in damnation. It was Owen who said "justification is by faith alone, but by a faith that is never alone". And of course he wrote "On the Mortification of Sin" in which the mortification of sin is presented as essential to a Christian, not an option. My only point here is to show guys like Charlie that these guys, many of whom were high Calvinists, and very predestinarian (if that's even a real word) believed in in such a way that the doctrine did not do away with the real time necessity of the things required for us to do. In other words, I am saying that while they did truly believe in predestination they also believed in real time, true interaction with God with an equal ultimacy. Something which the hyper-Calvinist does not.

 

[KenH]

Be honest with me and yourself, Ken, is this a condition for salvation?

No. Those things happen after regeneration, not before. Christ met ALL of the conditions for God's elect, chosen before the world began, and given to Christ to be their Surety, and to have their sins imputed to Him, and then He paid their sin debt in full, and Christ having worked out a perfect righteousness that is imputed to them.

 

[KenH]

Any known sin, persisted in, and not repented of would result in damnation.

I am a sinner saved by grace. Christ is my sanctification( 1 Corinthians 1:30 ). I am still the vile sinner in my flesh that I was before I was regenerated. This vile, sinful body of mine won't be redeemed until the second coming of Christ.

 

[DaveXR650]

We don't know what these particular Calvinists believe, none of them seem to have the ability to talk.

That is true, and a good point. However we have something almost as good. They printed and kept their sermons, and they wrote a lot of tracts and papers, which we have. This is where I began to discover the difference between the modern internet Calvinist you see on YouTube and the Reformed theologians, most of whom were also actual preachers. For example, would it surprise you to know that almost every Reformed preacher had some version of Revelation 3:20 in a sermon, as Jesus knocking at the door of your heart, encouraging you to open it so you could be saved? You cannot just blow these things off and go on about some logical argument for predestination.

 

[KenH]

Reformed theologians, most of whom were also actual preachers

The folks I hear the gospel of Christ from on a regular basis are actual preachers who preach in actual churches - five in particular - Richard Warmack, Kenny Dyess, Bill Parker, Scott Price, and Sonny Hernandez.

 

[Charlie24]

That is true, and a good point. However we have something almost as good. They printed and kept their sermons, and they wrote a lot of tracts and papers, which we have. This is where I began to discover the difference between the modern internet Calvinist you see on YouTube and the Reformed theologians, most of whom were also actual preachers. For example, would it surprise you to know that almost every Reformed preacher had some version of Revelation 3:20 in a sermon, as Jesus knocking at the door of your heart, encouraging you to open it so you could be saved? You cannot just blow these things off and go on about some logical argument for predestination.

I agree, modern Calvinism is revealing the dog and pony show.

Part of the reason they are not able to talk!