Whether it started with Edwards or Darby or Margaret MacDonald is really irrelevant (but still worth consideration that none of these teachings were wide spread until 1800 years into church history). What is really relevant is what does scripture say, and what does it say in context within the larger framework of the Bible?
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When Did idea of Pre trib rapture Come Into Church?
- Thread starter JesusFan
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humblethinker
Active Member
Maybe I have a misunderstanding of what is the current status of tribulation beliefs. As I understand it, all three (Pre, mid, post) uphold that the tribulation is divided into two parts, 1/2 of the time peaceful and the second 1/2 tumultuous, no?
Edwards believed in just a 3 1/2 year tribulation. So his view was pre-trib apparently but he had a different view of the tribulation that is popular today. He thought the tribulation just referred to the reign of the beast in Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Obviously that view is not common today. And most people do believe that the tribulation is a 7 year period however not all. I'm post-trib and disagree with that. George Ladd, IRRC also disagreed with a 7 year tribulation.
Apparently, there was one Ephraem the Syrian, (who lived from A.D. 306 to 373) whose writing commonly called "The Sermon of the End of the World" strongly supports a Pre-tribulational rapture theory:
In Chronological order I will post quotes from that sermon which support his belief in something VERY akin to what pre-trib rapturists teach now:
(The numbers are sections of the text)
"1. Most dearly beloved brothers, believe the Holy Spirit who speaks in us. Now we have spoken before, because the end of the world is very near, and the consummation remains. Has not the first faith withered away in men? ...
"2. We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because it is the very last time . . . . Because all saints and Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. And so, brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord . . .
"3. When therefore the end of the world comes, there arise diverse wars, commotions on all sides, horrible earthquakes, perturbations of nations, tempests throughout the lands, plagues, famine, drought throughout the thoroughfares, great danger throughout the sea and dry land, constant persecutions, slaughters and massacres everywhere . . .
"6. When therefore the end of the world comes, that abominable, lying and murderous one is born from the tribe of Dan. He is conceived from the seed of a man and from a most vile virgin, mixed with an evil or worthless spirit . . .
"7. But when the time of the abomination of his desolation begins to approach, having been made legal, he takes the empire . . . . Therefore, when he receives the kingdom, he orders the temple of God to be rebuilt for himself, which is in Jerusalem; who, after coming into it, he shall sit as God and order that he be adored by all nations . . . . then all people from everywhere shall flock together to him at the city of Jerusalem, and the holy city shall be trampled on by the nations for forty-two months just as the holy apostle says in the Apocalypse, which becomes three and a half years, 1260 days.
"8. In these three years and a half the heaven shall suspend its dew; because there will be no rain upon the earth . . . . and there will be a Great Tribulation, as there has not been, since people began to be upon the earth . . . . and no one is able to sell or to buy of the grain of the fall harvest, unless he is one who has the serpentine sign on the forehead or the hand . . . .
"10. And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy or son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the word of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints . . . . Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the Spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord for ever and ever."
The ENTIRE translation can be found here:
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ephraem-OntheLastTimestheAnt.pdf
You Will note according to section ten, that Ephraem marks a distinction between Christ's "Second-coming" and when the Saints are taken away in section Two as Pre-tribers say
NOTE: As a disclaimer, from what I can tell, This particular text dates from the 7th century, and is not original to Ephraem himself...and apparently there are alternative renderings similarly ascribed in other languages. This is from a Latin Text and is not from the source language.
Commonly they are ascribed to a "Pseudo-Ephraim" as when ancient and medieval authors will copy an historical text and ascribe Direct authorship to the historical person. (Think Plato writing as though he IS Socrates, who personally wrote nothing).
Point being, something VERY akin to various version of a Pre-tribulational Rapture can be found in some VERY early writers. USUALLY, you don't look to the EASTERN RCC to find them. You will note that Ephraim is of the Eastern Tradition (from Syria).
One way or another....The claim that Pre-trib in it's varying forms originates with Darby or someone else from that era and from whole-cloth is BUNK! The roots of Pre-trib rapturism seem to be WAY older than that.
In Chronological order I will post quotes from that sermon which support his belief in something VERY akin to what pre-trib rapturists teach now:
(The numbers are sections of the text)
"1. Most dearly beloved brothers, believe the Holy Spirit who speaks in us. Now we have spoken before, because the end of the world is very near, and the consummation remains. Has not the first faith withered away in men? ...
"2. We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because it is the very last time . . . . Because all saints and Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. And so, brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord . . .
"3. When therefore the end of the world comes, there arise diverse wars, commotions on all sides, horrible earthquakes, perturbations of nations, tempests throughout the lands, plagues, famine, drought throughout the thoroughfares, great danger throughout the sea and dry land, constant persecutions, slaughters and massacres everywhere . . .
"6. When therefore the end of the world comes, that abominable, lying and murderous one is born from the tribe of Dan. He is conceived from the seed of a man and from a most vile virgin, mixed with an evil or worthless spirit . . .
"7. But when the time of the abomination of his desolation begins to approach, having been made legal, he takes the empire . . . . Therefore, when he receives the kingdom, he orders the temple of God to be rebuilt for himself, which is in Jerusalem; who, after coming into it, he shall sit as God and order that he be adored by all nations . . . . then all people from everywhere shall flock together to him at the city of Jerusalem, and the holy city shall be trampled on by the nations for forty-two months just as the holy apostle says in the Apocalypse, which becomes three and a half years, 1260 days.
"8. In these three years and a half the heaven shall suspend its dew; because there will be no rain upon the earth . . . . and there will be a Great Tribulation, as there has not been, since people began to be upon the earth . . . . and no one is able to sell or to buy of the grain of the fall harvest, unless he is one who has the serpentine sign on the forehead or the hand . . . .
"10. And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy or son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the word of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints . . . . Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the Spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord for ever and ever."
The ENTIRE translation can be found here:
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ephraem-OntheLastTimestheAnt.pdf
You Will note according to section ten, that Ephraem marks a distinction between Christ's "Second-coming" and when the Saints are taken away in section Two as Pre-tribers say
NOTE: As a disclaimer, from what I can tell, This particular text dates from the 7th century, and is not original to Ephraem himself...and apparently there are alternative renderings similarly ascribed in other languages. This is from a Latin Text and is not from the source language.
Commonly they are ascribed to a "Pseudo-Ephraim" as when ancient and medieval authors will copy an historical text and ascribe Direct authorship to the historical person. (Think Plato writing as though he IS Socrates, who personally wrote nothing).
Point being, something VERY akin to various version of a Pre-tribulational Rapture can be found in some VERY early writers. USUALLY, you don't look to the EASTERN RCC to find them. You will note that Ephraim is of the Eastern Tradition (from Syria).
One way or another....The claim that Pre-trib in it's varying forms originates with Darby or someone else from that era and from whole-cloth is BUNK! The roots of Pre-trib rapturism seem to be WAY older than that.
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Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
Consider This....
Is it not true that God's revealing of TRUTH has been progressive to some degree?.....And that we now know things that the early church would NOT have been privy too. God has always used prophetic truth to reveal His truth to His people down through the ages.(Biblical Christianity is the ONLY religion that can truly say that. Ours is a prophetically-oriented faith and our Bible is the ONLY true prophetic Book) The early church would not have had the ability to see and know what we know now. We can now OBSERVE truths and events related to the end-times that would have made no sense to them in the world that then was.
That said, we must remember that the prophetic truths about the impending end-times are yet to be fulfilled. The true test of BIBLE prophecy is very narrow....it must be 100% accurate for it to be true. All those who are what I'll call "rapture detractors" need to remember that. If those of us who believe in a rapture are wrong...well....God will show us in His good time....and if we are right...:laugh:He'll show YOU......IN PERSON!!! I'm looking for a blessed Hope...and that Hope is the Lord Jesus Christ. He said He would come and get me so I can't lose EITHER WAY! Don't mess with my Hope...I'll be happy to share it with any who want it but I'll zealously and jealously guard against anyone trying to take it away from me.
Bro.Greg:saint:
Is it not true that God's revealing of TRUTH has been progressive to some degree?.....And that we now know things that the early church would NOT have been privy too. God has always used prophetic truth to reveal His truth to His people down through the ages.(Biblical Christianity is the ONLY religion that can truly say that. Ours is a prophetically-oriented faith and our Bible is the ONLY true prophetic Book) The early church would not have had the ability to see and know what we know now. We can now OBSERVE truths and events related to the end-times that would have made no sense to them in the world that then was.
That said, we must remember that the prophetic truths about the impending end-times are yet to be fulfilled. The true test of BIBLE prophecy is very narrow....it must be 100% accurate for it to be true. All those who are what I'll call "rapture detractors" need to remember that. If those of us who believe in a rapture are wrong...well....God will show us in His good time....and if we are right...:laugh:He'll show YOU......IN PERSON!!! I'm looking for a blessed Hope...and that Hope is the Lord Jesus Christ. He said He would come and get me so I can't lose EITHER WAY! Don't mess with my Hope...I'll be happy to share it with any who want it but I'll zealously and jealously guard against anyone trying to take it away from me.
Bro.Greg:saint:
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One guy (maybe?) From the first 1000 years of church history isn't much support. And even if the roots of pre-trib rapture seem to go back that far, so what? The roots of the Jehovah's Witness Heresy go back to the Arianism heresy.
Yes God has progressively revealed His truth to us, but that is IN SCRIPTURE. Revelation has progressed from Genesis to Revelation, not over time after the canon has closed. Unless of course you believe in continuing special revelation in which case this becomes a very different conversation. The only advantage we have over the early church is that we all have a completed and compiled canon while they didn't have access to all the books like we do. Be careful trying to say that we observe events that are related to end-times fulfillment, that's very subjective and not a good way to understand scripture.
And why do you think I don't believe in the rapture? I absolutely do! We will be caught up and glorified at the return of Jesus! That is our blessed hope - the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ! I'm not trying to mess with your hope in anyway. We just disagree on when that hope will be realized.
PROOVE IT!!! Because I have already supplied evidence (well researched) which suggests the contrary...You supply NO evidence to support this assertion nor do you negate my post which clearly teaches otherwise. Whether Pre-Trib is true or not ISN'T the question in the OP geniuses....the HISTORY of the doctrine is, and reasonable research might easily demonstrate that something quite akin to it was plausibly taught in the early ages of Christianity...
I provided a source, I linked to it, I gave a COMPLETE disclaimer out of intellectual honesty....and you detractors sound like intellectual BABIES to me. If no one can respond to my clear and concise honest argument than...suck an egg.
Uh dude you need to calm the heck down. I didn't attack you or accuse you of anything. Seriously... go take your medicine and take a nap.
I don't have to provide any "new information" about the origin of this doctrine, as you said you and others have already supplied pretty much everything that i known. I was just making a side comment that only having one ancient source is not much support.
I really don't understand why you are so angry.
And regarding what I bolded above:
You must not be terribly observant, because if you were you would see that I did start a thread on exactly that and it is currently at 5 pages. Feel free to join if you can attempt to keep your anger under control.
NO, you merely compared Pre-tribers to Jehova's Witnesses and other patent heretics...No problem... No insult there
I'm not particularly passionate or vested in Pre-Tribulational Rapturism....I grew up being taught it, but I don't consider myself expert enough to debate it with anyone. Therefore, I don't, and NEVER have. I am perfectly willing to admit that Pre-Trib Rapturalism may, in fact, be false, because I do not have sufficient knowledge to be dogmatic one way or the other...I am NO good at Eschatology...but I'm good at history<----that makes sense if you think about it.
This thread was about the HISTORY of the doctrine (something I was willing to add some insight into)....and You, and Bosley got huffy because the information I found and linked to didn't pan out your way.........Cry me a River and argue with the facts of history, I've never rightly gave one whit about Pre-mid-Post Rapturism or whatever....But Bosley and you BOTH are merely getting huffy about some Historical information I submitted.
NO, you merely compared Pre-tribers to Jehova's Witnesses and other patent heretics...No problem... No insult there
:BangHead:
Actually no I didn't. I said:
Simply remarking on the fact that an old history doesn't mean it's accurate theology and showed how a modern heresy has ancient history. I said nothing about them being similar or both heretical.
And for the record I DO think Pre-trib is an error, but not heresy. But this is not the thread for that discussion.
I'm not particularly passionate or vested in Pre-Tribulational Rapturism....I grew up being taught it, but I don't consider myself expert enough to debate it with anyone. Therefore, I don't, and NEVER have. I am perfectly willing to admit that Pre-Trib Rapturalism may, in fact, be false, because I do not have sufficient knowledge to be dogmatic one way or the other...I am NO good at Eschatology...but I'm good at history<----that makes sense if you think about it.
Bosley and you BOTH are merely getting huffy about some Historical information I submitted.
The only one getting "huffy" is you dude. You just need to chill out.
OK man God Bless :wavey:
God Bless :wavey:I'm not particularly passionate or vested in Pre-Tribulational Rapturism....I grew up being taught it, but I don't consider myself expert enough to debate it with anyone. Therefore, I don't, and NEVER have. I am perfectly willing to admit that Pre-Trib Rapturalism may, in fact, be false, because I do not have sufficient knowledge to be dogmatic one way or the other...I am NO good at Eschatology...but I'm good at history<----that makes sense if you think about it.
Bosley and you BOTH are merely getting huffy about some Historical information I submitted.
Not huffy, pre-trib is young
Ok! :wavey: God bless and have a great day. :flower:
jilphn1022
New Member
for Morgan Edwards fans
[I saw the following on the net which you may enjoy reading.]
The Real Morgan Edwards
by George Wilson
In 1995, in a 24-page booklet on 18th century pastor Morgan Edwards, evangelist John Bray claimed that Edwards taught a pretrib rapture in his 1788 book titled "Two Academical Exercises...."
Those echoing Bray include Thomas Ice who wrote "Morgan Edwards: Another Pre-Darby Rapturist." Edwards' 1788 work can be found on the internet.
In order to claim that Edwards held to pretrib, candidates for the I-can-find-pretrib-earlier-in-church-history-than-you-can medal - including Bray, Ice, LaHaye, Frank Marotta etc. - have intentionally covered up Edwards' "historicism," his belief that the tribulation had already been going on for hundreds of years. (How can anyone in the tribulation go back in time and look for a pretrib rapture?)
Here's proof of Edwards' historicism and its companion "day-year" theory which can view the 1260 tribulation "days" as "years."
On p. 14 Edwards described the Ottoman Empire (which was then already 400 years old) as the Rev. 13:11 "beast." On p. 20 he defined "Antichrist" as the already 1000-year-old "popery" and the "succession of persons" known as "Popes" - his other Rev. 13 "beast." He necessarily viewed Rev. 13's 1260-day period as 1260 literal years in order to provide enough time for his two "beasts."
On p. 19, while discussing "the ministry of the witnesses" of Rev. 11, he allotted "about 204 years" for their "years to perform" - years impossible to fit into a 3.5-year period!
What about Edwards' rapture? On pp. 21-23 he wrote about "the appearing of the son of man in the clouds, coming to raise the dead saints and change the living, and to catch them up to himself....The signs of Christ's appearing in the clouds will be extraordinary 'wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes and famines,' &. (Matth. xxiv. 6-8.)....The signs of his coming, in the heavens will be 'the trump of God [I Thess. 4:16], vapor and smoke, which will darken the sun and moon [Matt. 24:29],'...and also cause those meteors called 'falling stars'....
Right after his combined rapture/advent (!), Edwards said: "And therefore, now, Antichrist...will...counterfeit the preceding wonders in heaven...causing 'fire to come down from heaven'....And that godhead he will now assume, after killing the two witnesses....Now the great persecution of the Jews will begin...for time, times, and half a time...."
Thomas Ice's article on Edwards (see first par. above) quoted only the first 27 words in the above quotation, ending with "to himself." This sort of unethical revisionism is constantly employed by many pretrib defenders.
Not only had most of Edwards' historicist tribulation occurred before his combined rapture/advent, but his Antichrist kept raging for 3.5 years even after the Matt. 24 signs! No wonder his tutor advised him to correct his thesis!
To read Edwards' complete work, Google "[PDF] Two Academical Exercises...www.breadoflifebiblestudy.com."
For more info on Edwards, Google "McPherson Page" (click on a reproduction of "Cover-Ups"). Also Google "Deceiving and Being Deceived" by historian Dave MacPherson.
[I saw the following on the net which you may enjoy reading.]
The Real Morgan Edwards
by George Wilson
In 1995, in a 24-page booklet on 18th century pastor Morgan Edwards, evangelist John Bray claimed that Edwards taught a pretrib rapture in his 1788 book titled "Two Academical Exercises...."
Those echoing Bray include Thomas Ice who wrote "Morgan Edwards: Another Pre-Darby Rapturist." Edwards' 1788 work can be found on the internet.
In order to claim that Edwards held to pretrib, candidates for the I-can-find-pretrib-earlier-in-church-history-than-you-can medal - including Bray, Ice, LaHaye, Frank Marotta etc. - have intentionally covered up Edwards' "historicism," his belief that the tribulation had already been going on for hundreds of years. (How can anyone in the tribulation go back in time and look for a pretrib rapture?)
Here's proof of Edwards' historicism and its companion "day-year" theory which can view the 1260 tribulation "days" as "years."
On p. 14 Edwards described the Ottoman Empire (which was then already 400 years old) as the Rev. 13:11 "beast." On p. 20 he defined "Antichrist" as the already 1000-year-old "popery" and the "succession of persons" known as "Popes" - his other Rev. 13 "beast." He necessarily viewed Rev. 13's 1260-day period as 1260 literal years in order to provide enough time for his two "beasts."
On p. 19, while discussing "the ministry of the witnesses" of Rev. 11, he allotted "about 204 years" for their "years to perform" - years impossible to fit into a 3.5-year period!
What about Edwards' rapture? On pp. 21-23 he wrote about "the appearing of the son of man in the clouds, coming to raise the dead saints and change the living, and to catch them up to himself....The signs of Christ's appearing in the clouds will be extraordinary 'wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes and famines,' &. (Matth. xxiv. 6-8.)....The signs of his coming, in the heavens will be 'the trump of God [I Thess. 4:16], vapor and smoke, which will darken the sun and moon [Matt. 24:29],'...and also cause those meteors called 'falling stars'....
Right after his combined rapture/advent (!), Edwards said: "And therefore, now, Antichrist...will...counterfeit the preceding wonders in heaven...causing 'fire to come down from heaven'....And that godhead he will now assume, after killing the two witnesses....Now the great persecution of the Jews will begin...for time, times, and half a time...."
Thomas Ice's article on Edwards (see first par. above) quoted only the first 27 words in the above quotation, ending with "to himself." This sort of unethical revisionism is constantly employed by many pretrib defenders.
Not only had most of Edwards' historicist tribulation occurred before his combined rapture/advent, but his Antichrist kept raging for 3.5 years even after the Matt. 24 signs! No wonder his tutor advised him to correct his thesis!
To read Edwards' complete work, Google "[PDF] Two Academical Exercises...www.breadoflifebiblestudy.com."
For more info on Edwards, Google "McPherson Page" (click on a reproduction of "Cover-Ups"). Also Google "Deceiving and Being Deceived" by historian Dave MacPherson.
This should be proof that some of the earliest church fathers believed in a pretribulation rapture.
MB
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